This came up during a discussion at the weekend, anyone know how often these were issued/to what units/how many returned to the UK?
There's thread on here somewhere about the use of Thompsons in 1939/40 with some pictures. I've never seen anything official in diary's of Thompson's being used so if any did go they were 'buckshee'. The Orbats and weapons scales I have for 1940 don't mention them either. The only weapons listed are Pistols, Rifles, A/Tk Rifles, Bren Guns, Signal Pistol and 2" and 3" Mortars.
According to the thread below the earliest appears to be June 1940 with the Thompson being deployed with the 52nd Division to France. I wonder if there are any official reports or weapon scales for it in any 1940 files at Kew. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/15598-what-wrong-tommy-round-mag-2.html
Hi all I'm sure I've read a post on this but I'll be damned if I can find it. Q; did the Thompson get any use in France with the BEF. Any photos/docs to prove this? Ta Smudge
I believe Thompsons were in very short supply post-Dunkirk, the Commandos had a limited numbers that were held centrally and issued for sepcific raids, most of the initial imports went straight to the Auxiliary Units.
I've never read an account of a (1st) BEF unit having Thompsons. They all appeared to have pistols, .303 and Bren guns. Infact one diary I was reading last night half of them deployed to France in 39 without rifles. One diary I was reading the other day said the unit was re-equipped with P.13 rifles after returning from Dunkirk. They were deployed to Leeds before being sent to Lincs to defend the coast under I Corps. I'm currently reading the 2nd Vol. of a Anglo/French politically focused book and as late as mid June there is quite a few mentions of the Americans sending supplies (Infact it says if America declared war on Germany in 1940 the French would not have surrendered and would have continued fighting in N. Africa but thats another story) to the French. I wonder if any of the shipments contained Thompsons and were diverted to the UK when France seeked an armastice with Germany. By the way there is a great picture of two guardsmen (circa 1939/40) with Thompsons on the net with LIFE imposed on it.
what was wrong with the Tommy round mag? post # 45 I can know correct myself, I've found an earlier use of the Thompson SMG by the British. They were in use in February 1940 by Fighting Patrols of 1st Guards Brigade serving down on the Maginot Line on a scale of THREE per battalion on a loan basis. also page 11 of The Grenadier Guards In The War Of 1939-1945 Vol 1 by Forbes mentions patrols from 3 GG in the Maginot line ... - and carried grenades, bayonets and the first American sub-machine guns to be issued to British troops.
Aside from VERY limited use early on in the war for battle trials, I believe that the first 50 Thompson SMGs went to the newly formed Commandos and were first used by them on their Channel Islands raid.
Drew, You mentioned the Pattern 13 Enfield. I didn't know that the P-13 was ever produced in quantity. Were they the original .276 caliber? I saw a short clip on TV two nights ago on some history channel show. It was about 5 seconds long and showed British sailors marching with what appeared to be either P-14s or M1917 Enfields. It occurred to me then that I'd never seen any pictures of UK forces with these rifles before. I believe a number of M1917s (in addition to P-14s) were supplied to Britian in WWII. Using them on a ship would have made sense so that the 30:06 ammo they used would have been easy to keep separate from .303 but I'm just speculating on that. There were also M1s sent to Britain. They, like the M1917s, had a wide red band painted around the forend to signify a non-standard cartridge Do you have any info on any of these rifles being used in combat by UK or Commonwealth forces? By the way, a lot of Americans call the M1917 the "P-17 Enfield" in the States. I do it, even though I know it isn't "technically" correct. Thanks, Dave
Hi Dave, The mention I saw was in a war diary entry for June for a unit being re-equipped after returning to the UK and then posted somewhere on the East coast in prep for a German invasion. I think they were a RASC unit at I Div or Corps level and it just mentions they were equipped with P.13's no other detail, sorry. Andy
By way of cross-reference, the recent Capt John Alexander Mackenzie (2/ Gloucester Regt) thread mentions his use of a Thompson in January 1940. There are also the various conflicting reports about Sgt Major George Gristock VC of A Co., 2/Royal Norfolk Regt at the Escaut on 21 May 1940; his Captain (Barclay) wrote that seeing a German machine-gun post being set up on the right flank, Gristock "went forward with a Tommy gun and grenades to dispose of this party . . .". [*] An eye witness (Ernie Leggett) reported seeing Gristock "raise his rifle", but he was much further away - I guess he assumed it to be a rifle and simply couldn't discern between the two weapons at that distance. The VC citation fails to mention what weapons Gristock used. [*] Quoted in Hart's At the Sharp End, pages 33 to 34
Not sure about Dunkirk, however a pool of newly arrived Thompsons was held by the newly formed Commandos and issued on an as required for ops basis - the first unit to get the Thompson was the Auxiliary Units patrols in southern England they had them issued ahead of the Army this would have been post-Dunkirk
Just reading the Guards VC book (very good by the way) and Lt Halliday who was in charge of the fighting patrol says that they were loaned 3 per battalion. I presume the next Bn to relieve them along the Saar front was lent them too! This was early February 1940.
Just reading the Guards VC book (very good by the way) and Lt Halliday who was in charge of the fighting patrol says that they were loaned 3 per battalion. I presume the next Bn to relieve them along the Saar front was lent them too! This was early February 1940. There's quite a few pictures of Peter Barclay (First MC of WW2) on the Saar Front acting out getting his MC and no sign of a Thompson there omly a pistol and .303's. I think they were around then but I'd love to see a picture to prove it. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/25248-first-military-cross-military-medal-world-war-two.html Guards VC is how all 1940 France books should be written
Looking out for further mentions of Tommy guns in use in the BEF in May 1940, yesterday I got to page 58 in "Tigers at Dunkirk" by Matthew Richardson which describes the experience of the 2nd/5th Leicesters. Private Gordon Spring recalled being in one of the many small groups of men from his battalion trying to make their way to the coast after the unit was broken up by German attacks at Canal de la Haute Deule near Carvin: . . . a German Messerschmidt starts to machine gun us. We were saved by a sh*t pit that we both fell in. We came across another building. I had a Thompson machine gun with me. We approached it warily. Nothing there. We'd just turned around to leave and shots rang out - my sergeant was dead. Here one moment, gone the next. In anger I rushed back, blasting away with my gun. I shot three of the b*****ds but then needed to get away myself. No shots followed me.
In Saul Davids book, Churchills sacrifice of the Highland division the Tommy gun is mentioned a few times. It would seem as if they were given to the battlepatrols formed in every bn. A shortage of tommy guns is mentioned when the division is deployed on the Saar.