The mystery behind Dave's Japanese swords

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by Ron Goldstein, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    When I was a callow teenager and living in the East End of London I had a bosom pal by the name of Dave Biber.

    In April 1943 I was shipped to North Africa, Dave, by then in the RAF, was posted to an airfield in Burma and we were not to meet up again for many years until Dave & his wife moved to Israel and we once again made contact.

    In his flat in Netanya, Dave had a pair of Japanese swords hung on the wall and also a framed certificate that gave him permission to have them.

    Dave always promised to tell me the story behind his ownership of these swords but, as often happens in these sort of scenarios, he never did and now, by his much lamented passing, he never will.

    Just another of life's un-solved mysteries.
     

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  2. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    I wonder if he was part of 221 Group - "Rangoon, Burma. C. 1945-08. Lieutenant General (Lt Gen) Sir Frank Messervy presents captured Japanese officers' swords to flight commanders of No. 221 Group RAF in recognition of their close support of the Army from Imphal to Rangoon. Air Vice Marshal G. A. Bouchier, Air Officer Commanding No. 221 Group RAF, receives one of the swords from Lt Gen Messervy. "
     

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  3. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dave

    Many thanks for that.

    I've tried deciphering the text. The best I can do is:

    Acftman Biber is entitled to be in possesion of one Japanese sword, this has been awarded to him officially in accordance with ACSA (?) Admin Order 701/45
    D.MCLaren W/CDR

    Dave was helping to run an aircraft landing site somewhere in Burma and I remember him telling me he was pretty deaf from the noise of planes taking off all the time.

    I note the certificate says "one" sword, I wonder where the second one came from ?
     
  4. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Acftman Biber is entitled to be in possesion of one Japanese sword, this has been awarded to him officially in accordance with ACSA (?) Admin Order 701/45

    It is ACSEA - Air Command South East Asia
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Sol

    Thanks for that piece of the jigsaw :)

    Ron
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    The shorter sword doesn't look Japanese in the least, perhaps a local souvenir?

    And bless the Internet, there's even a forum for etnographic weapons! Maybe these people will know something...
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I wrote to one of Dave's sons and received the following:

    Concerning my great dad – He never really told us the story about the swords – you know as much as we knew – my dad was a funny guy – he always put off telling his stories about that time period, possibly because he lost a few good friends then and just wanted to leave those time as he remembered them and not to bring up difficult events for him to go through again –


    So, still a mystery, unless one of you chaps can help.

    Ron
     
  8. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Interesting thread Ron, thanks for posting. One thought I had on the shorter 'sword' was along the same lines as Za Rodinu. I was thinking that maybe it could be a local or service machete type weapon/tool?
    Nothing to back my theory up, just a hunch.
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Andy agrees with me and I agree with him :)
    That Japanese sword has to be indeed a 20th century item, as all that were issued to Japanese officers at graduation, no 400 years old family heirlooms there. Just look at the scabbard, it has a modern chape like you could see on Gen. Custer's sabre!

    This does not mean these swords are to be sneered at, here is a 20th century sword from the Showa era (i.e. Emp. Hiroito) on sale for 1,600 £ link and per what I see from the rest of the site this is a cheap item! The item in the link is quite a refined one, hand-made, with a shark skin scabbard. The general issue swords were machine made out of bar stock, like Wilkinson's, but what matters is the how it came into the owner's possession.

    In Google Books.
     
  10. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Just clicked that link Za, and it took me to our to the WW2 talk forum page...Not sure if that was what it was meant to do hehe.
     
  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Of course it was, I was just trying to see if anyone was interested :D

    Try again, I corrected it :)
     
  12. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Thanks Za I thought I had ended up in some sort of never ending vortex lol. Love the detailed photo of the blade real neat detail shown.
     
  13. Richie B

    Richie B Junior Member

    Ron

    The short sword is a Dutch Klewang - used by the KNIL forces in their colonies in the Far East. The original models - 1898 and 1911 had longer blades and a bowl shaped guard.

    They were later shortened in the version shown in the photo. The bowl shaped guard was also removed - leaving a small oval cross guard.

    Link to more info

    M1911 Dutch Klewang Authentic Ca 1940

    I believe they were used by the Japanese who captured them from the Dutch.

    The design was copied by the US as the M1917 cutlass.

    Hope that is of some interest.

    Regards

    Richie
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.
  14. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    If that's what it is, then mystery solved. I had never heard of this :)

    The hilt shape seems alright, but the handguard must be broken.

    More photos here.
     
  15. Richie B

    Richie B Junior Member

    Swiftly taken photo of the modified hilt.
     

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  16. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gents

    Thanks for your learned help, it looks as though by the end of the day we will know what these weapons actually were.

    At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I am still interested in why or how a lowly aircraftman would have offically been awarded such items.

    I live in hope :)

    Ron
     
  17. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Interesting stuff Richie, thanks for sharing with us. I started searching the web but gave up after about 5 minutes because I realised I had no idea what I was looking for!
     
  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Gents

    Thanks for your learned help, it looks as though by the end of the day we will know what these weapons actually were.

    At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I am still interested in why or how a lowly aircraftman would have offically been awarded such items.

    I live in hope :)

    Ron

    That Admin order must still exist somewhere but it would need a National Archive expert to find it !

    Could it be that those who wished were allowed to apply for a captured sword and if they were successful, the sword was 'awarded' to them. presuambly men of good conduct who weren't expected to sell them on the black market.
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    On the Katana:
    a large number of swords were stored in warehouses by the allies after WW2 and then soldiers were given access to them to take home as war trophies
    From - Japanese Nagoya Arsenal WW2 NCO's Katana
    (a reasonably well known site - I used to be fascinated by service Katanas, but almost everything about them has since fallen out of my head)

    Presumably this would require a chit, if only to prevent it being thieved by some passing officer, as much as to show it was allowed booty.
     
  20. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Adam

    Presumably this would require a chit, if only to prevent it being thieved by some passing officer, as much as to show it was allowed booty.


    On consideration, I think you've probably hit the nail on the head.

    Here was I thinking that Dave had performed some act of derring do, when all the time it was someone at GHQ who had come up with a brilliant solution of how to dispose of all those Japanese swords that were piling up after the surrender.

    I think I will start a thread on "Booty in the British Army" :)

    Ron
     

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