The Battles for Point 103 and St. Pierre (8th–18th June 1944)

Further to my post above I have run the original French text in Stephane Jacquet's book through Google Translate and the English version in the book is accurate. He goes on to say ".. and the Cromwell tank, seen at intervals through the close country, bore a strong resemblance to the German Mark IV, especially in Bocage country, and even more so if the tanks werre camouflaged"

Does anybody know if the 7 ARMD DIV (4 CLY) Cromwells were camouflaged by 10 June, and did they ever bear the White Star?

Ian

 

CLY “Friendly Fire” incident 10 June

As Ramiles suggested I have looked at 7 Armoured Division’s unit diaries but I have found nothing that clarifies who from 8 Armoured Brigade was involved in the friendly fire incident on the morning of 10 June 1944. I have gone back to the originals in case the transcriptions on the Normandy War Guide are inaccurate.

7 Armoured Division HQ

Their WD is silent on the matter. Their Sit Rep for 10 June (below) only scores 2 Cromwells knocked out, but the 5 RTR WD entry in the previous post mentions 2 Cromwells lost, so the CLY losses due to “friendly fire” do not register at Divisional level.



22 Armoured Brigade

Their Day-to-day diary entry


And this from a report attached to their diary “22 ARMD BDE Ops – 6 – 15 JUN 1944”


4 CLY WD

This clarifies the location of one of the friendly fire incidents as Grid Ref 830720 which if accurate means just to the West of Chouain i.e. about 3k NW of Pt 103


50 Div HQ WD

Nothing in the day-to-day diary but their message log has intriguing entries that may be describing the 2nd instance of “friendly fire”


“TROUD” should say “Trout” which is Jerusalem.– this gets more fishy the deeper I get into it.

1 Km south of Jerusalem is between Chouain and St Bazire.

“smarted up” – typo “smashed up”??

”B.GEF”?

Grid Ref 826707 is the same area, suggesting presence of enemy vehicles in vicinity of the “friendly” fire incidents which could mean inaccurate fire as opposed to mistaken identity and deliberate targeting

2nd Army Message Logs

Another intriguing entry


So 8 Armoured were definitely firing into the Seulles valley at the time of the 1st reported incident, but Bucéels is further south and there were definitely enemy AFVs in that vicinity about to meet 4 CLY coming south

Conclusions:

None!

There may be something else out there that admits to this but at the moment I feel I have taken this as far as I can. I still cant see that it could have been 24L or their 147 Fd FOOs because between 9:00 and 11:00 when the incidents took place they were all heavily engaged in St Pierre (from 1st light through the morning as can be deduced from the 24L WD below).



And there is evidence of 8 Armoured firing into the Seulles valley at legitimate enemy targets which were about to meet 7 Armoured moving south, so this may be as a result of inaccurate fire as opposed to mistaken identity. When the opposing forward units are intermingled like this I suppose this sort of incident will occur.

Extract from WO Caen map 7F/1 showing the area of 7 Armoured Advance discussed above and 8 Armoured at Pt 103 & St Pierre

 

If it wasn’t 24L which of the other tank Regiments might have been responsible for the “friendly fire” on 10 June 1944?

SRY had spent the night of the 9/10 June at Martragny, north of the main Bayeux/Caen road, having withdrawn there to replenish and reorganise. Being separated from 8 ARMD BDE HQ still on Pt 103 they may not have been as well informed about the planned progress of 7 Armoured Divison. According to Rev Skinner’s account, they left Martragny before 06:30 and were in action by 09:00, but their War Diary makes no mention of any action on the c 7 Km journey down to Pt 103.

What is clear is that at some point on their journey down to Pt 103 that morning SRY would have been close to Chouain, the area of the first 09:00 "friendly fire" incident, with a good view over that part of the Seulles valley, better than that of 4/7 DG still on Pt 103, 3½ Kms away.. In fact SRY were subsequently ordered to patrol the slopes on the West Bank of the River Seulles, the stretch opposite Chouain down to Tilly but its not clear when this began and may have been after the incidents.

In the absence of any fresh information I suspect this will never be resolved, but from an opportunity and practical POV I believe its most likely to have been SRY and/or their supporting FOOs from 413 Battery, 147 FD.

Ian

 

Apologies - my post above should say "In fact SRY were subsequently ordered to patrol the slopes on the East Bank of the River Seulles, the stretch opposite Chouain down to Tilly but its not clear when this began and may have been after the incidents".

 

Pt 103 Aerial photographs
I am trying to locate a contemporary aerial photo of Pt 103 to help visualise what the various personal accounts are describing.

This one is the best I can find, but being oblique its orientation is unclear and I am having difficulty locating the area, (acknowledging that Pt 103 is not a peak of course), or the river and roads. Also its not clear to me what the annotations are, the photos's source, and I cant find any further photos from its sortie at NARA or NCAP.

Does anybody have any insight into this photograph?

Thank you

Ian

 

On #65 - I've pm'd

----- x ----- x -----

The area around Point 103...



Ring contour 100, around Point 103 on the current Google maps



It might need...

 

I don't currently have time to check but there were details of recce flight paths and images etc posted some time ago on one of the Tessel Wood or Parc de Boislonde threads.

 

Thanks - I will search for those & repost here
Ian

 

CLY Friendly Fire (June 10th 1944).
Just a couple of points to add on this topic.

1. Tim Saunders in his new book "Battle for the Bocage" also concludes it was "probably" SRY (p112) but without specific references to back this up

2. Brigadier Cracroft says (from "8 Armoured Brigade - BREAK-OUT FROM NORMANDY BRIDGEHEAD
JUNE 7TH - 12TH 1944")
"During the morning I also got reports of bodies of enemy infantry moving in towards 103 from the West, i.e. From the area BUCEELS and STE BAZIRE. I dealt with this by ordering the SRY to move up from BRECY and by clearing the area South of the railway and up to the river NW of 103"

"South of the railway and up to the river NW of 103" is Le Pont Roc north through Chouain which again puts them in the area

I dont think there will ever be a confirmation of this unless there is a first hand veteran account out there somewhere, but to me the SRY and/or their supporting Gunners from 413 Battery 147FD look most likely.

Ian

 

I have tried to find aerial photographs in the Tessel Wood or Parc de Boislonde threads but no luck. Perhaps you were recalling to M Kenny's post #7 higher up in this thread? Unfortunately none of the sorties described there cover Pt 103.
There is an aerial photo in James Holland's "Brothers In Arms" annotated with POI highlighted in his text, I cant find any reference to a sortie or date althought its clearly contemporary.

 

You asked about white stars on vehicles, was that marking specifically noted in any of the reports?

 

No. I was just trying to understand whether mistaken identity was really the issue as recorded in the analysis of the incident, or whether it was more likely to be inaccurate fire/shifting front lines. I have no knowledge about markings on CLY’s Cromwells. If it was SRY/147 Fd they would have line of sight over the Seulles valley. I know 147 Fd AFVs had Allied white stars on 6 June. ian

 

So far I have seen just two records of British tanks with the Allied white star on the side:

File:British Sherman tanks and infantry during the advance on Caen, Normandy, 9 July 1944. B6758.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

30TH CORPS IN ACTION SOUTH OF BAYEUX (PART 4) [Allocated Title]


It could be that the star was more common on the top of the turret, like this M3. The M10 in the same film had one on top and on the front plate:

DEPARTURE FROM UK FOR NORMANDY INVASION (PART 1) [Allocated Title]

 

You could ask him directly on Twitter where he's a frequent poster.

Note: you are correct about M Kenny recce images (even though his image is no longer visible). Apologies for my confusion.

 

Not conclusive but the 21AG official policy as at 3 Apr 44 says that an encircled white star was to be painted, where possible, on armoured vehicles on the top only.

Attached memo was extracted from WO 229. Supplies; Insignia; etc (Described at item level). | The National Archives.

 

Thank you Richelieu. There is a photo in the SALE collection at the National Army Museum that shows 3 CLY Sherman’s disembarking on 7th June with Allied stars on their turrets, but I have not seen anything similar of 4 CLY Cromwells. I suppose even if they did sport the stars they may have been covered up by 10th June and mistaken identity can not be ruled out for this “friendly fire” incident even if “line of sight” was clear. Ian

 

There were three KIA in 4 CLY on 10/06/44 according to CWGC.

The following extracts are from what may be a draft of John Cloudesley-Thompson's RAC Journal article Arromances to Buceels.

The first death was Serjeant Oliver:

According to CWGC Tpr Clough (no sqn recorded) and Cpl Mallett (B Sqn) were buried together at 823710:

There's no information on tank casualties from 8 Armd Bde's fire. Aside from Mallet, there is mention of another Cromwell having its track shot off yet still managing to reverse around a corner.

Regarding the fratricide, have infantry and RA anti-tank guns with 8 Armd Bde been ruled out as friendly-firers?

 

^ Actual information added to the earlier post!

That blew out a few cobwebs.

 

I have taken the liberty of copying all the posts on the 4 CLY "Friendfly fire" incident to a new thread as what started as a sideline query, motivated by trying to establish which of the 8 ARMD BDE tank Regiments and/or their supporting 147 Fd RA SP Battery were involved in the "Friendly Fire" on 4 CLY, has developed into something that has deviated too far from the subject of the host thread and probably warrants its own.

8 Armoured Brigade “Friendly Fire” on 4 CLY from Pt 103 – 10 June 1944

 

If it is of interest to anybody, the source of the aerial reconnaissance photograph over Point 103 used in James Holland's book "Brothers In Arms" was taken shortly after 09:00 on 12 June 1944 from Sortie US7/1839 (Frame 7060). NCAP

There is an image of a very similar area taken on the 31st May 1944 NCAP

Ian