The Battle for Tilly-sur-Seulles - Normandy - June 1944

Thank you so much for your response. It is very kind of you to check Stephane’s book for the details I am seeking.

Could I ask how you know there was a medical facility at Jerusalem? I can find that a number of people have said this but I have been unable to locate any original sources of this information.

And I have drawn a complete blank trying to confirm the account of the daughter of a veteran, that Monty presented her father with a medal in a ceremony at Jerusalem.

I will try to find Stephane on Facebook and await a response to my email to the Tilly Association. I hope to return to Tilly in October this year.

Thank you again.

PS I forget to say that I’ve looked at the RAMC threads, including the one for the 200th Fd. Amb.

 

Thank you for looking at this for me.

I’ve looked at various threads to do with the RAMC and specifically, the 200th Fd Amb but I still feel that I’m trying to get to grips with this site and all the acronyms!

All suggestions appreciated. And if anyone can link the IWM video footage definitively to Jerusalem, I’d be very grateful.

Thank you again.

Claire

 

Just returned from a trip to Normandy, had a list of more than a 100 battle sites to cover, and unfortunately, being no longer 25 (but more than twice this age), we had to scrap several spots.
I did visit Tilly Sur Seules, Lingèvres, Parfouruy sur Odon, Fontenay le Pesnel and Creully but it was all stop and go, taking some pictures of the monuments and the cemeteries.

 

Medical facility at Jerusalem: I can't remember the source but most likely discussions with people who 'were there' (24th Lancers Old Comrades: my late fathers Regiment).

Have you checked the 200 Field Ambulance War Diary?....assuming there is one...

 

Thank you. That’s great.

I have the first War Diary of the 200th Fd. Amb. WO 177/798 and I’m attempting to transcribe it. I’m on 21 of 180 pages…! Trying to read the handwriting takes ages! It runs from 1941-1942/43.

I do not have the second War Diary WO 177/799 and hope to ask Rob Clark to get this for me unless anyone can point me to a copy elsewhere? It runs from 1943-1946.

I have also sent a request to the NA for my Great Uncle’s service record which might arrive by next year…!

If there is anything else I should be doing, please let me know. And thank you again for your help.

 

I visted Jerusalem CWGC cemetery last week:

FB_IMG_1716831327114 by vestingjager posted May 27, 2024 at 7:41 PM

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FB_IMG_1716831333950 by vestingjager posted May 27, 2024 at 7:41 PM

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FB_IMG_1716831340710 by vestingjager posted May 27, 2024 at 7:41 PM

FB_IMG_1716831348959 by vestingjager posted May 27, 2024 at 7:41 PM

 

200 Fd Amb looks a good contender as it was one of 50th Northumbrian Division's units. They fought in that area and many of the dead in the cemetery are from the division or units that supported it:
Search Results | CWGC

Wiki's order of battle for 50 Div:
50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division - Wikipedia

I haven't been through the whole list but there are some concentration burials (field burials moved into the cemetery at the end of the war) - see under Raybould as an example.

 

This documentary that was on bbc2 this evening and is available on i-player has veterans telling their stories of D-Day and afterwards, does mention a little bit on Tilly-sur-Seulles towards the end of the program as one of the story tellers was there.
D-Day 80: We Were There: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001zrbz via @bbciplayer

 

There's a bit of context re. the Battle for Tilly-sur-Seulles in this -

 

I applied for my grandfather’s service records eighteen months ago and was redirected to TNA who refused to give me a copy citing the following

Section 41 (1) of the Act exempts information if:

(a) It was obtained by the public authority from any other person (including another public authority), and
(b) The disclosure of the information to the public (otherwise than under the Act) by the public authority holding it would constitute a breach of confidence actionable by that or any other person.
This is why this record has been closed to the public in full. It contains medical information that has been deemed to have been given ‘in confidence’ at the time of recording to an authority.

Section 40


Information within this record is also exempt under Section 40 (2) (by virtue of section 40 (3B) personal data exemption) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as the document contains the personal information of a number of identified individuals presumed to still be living.

Section 40 exempts personal information about a ‘third party’ (someone other than the requester or data subject), if revealing it would breach the terms of Data Protection Legislation.

Data Protection Legislation prevents personal information being released to the public if it would be unfair or at odds with the reason why it was collected, or where the subject had officially served notice that releasing it would cause them damage or distress.

Personal information must be processed lawfully, fairly, and in a transparent manner as set out by Art. 5 of the UK General Data Protection Regulation (UK GDPR).

The named individuals in this document would have no expectation that their personal information would be made available by The National Archives in the public domain during their lifetimes; to do so would be unfair and would risk causing damage and distress, which would contravene the first data protection principle.

My grandfather drove an ambulance. He died in 1965. I’ve provided a death certificate. I lodged a complaint..no one has responded. My MP wrote and I was fobbed off again, apparently having received other family members service records is enough. I really do not understand why they are being so awkward, it’s not like he was a really important person or a spy! All I want to establish is which unit my grandfather was attached to so I can research war diaries and the route he took from embarkation to demobilisation. Oral family history was limited as he apparently was reluctant to talk to my Dad about his war. I think he was at Tilly sur Seulles, there was a story about him running into his Merchant Navy brother in law in Antwerp, and he supposedly went to Belsen at some point.

if anyone might be able to suggest which unit he could have been with and any way I might be able to research without his records, I would be eternally grateful

 

Sorry for the delay in my posting, as so life carries on.

Going back to my grandfather if I may, I have a short extract that he wrote about his landing in Normandy.

Maybe some of you may find it interesting? Sorry if is a little long....

"On our arrival at Mulberry Harbour at Arromanches, not that I knew that there was even a town or village or whatever on the coast, we got down the rope nets off the ship, the lorries, ambulances and trucks etc. being craned off with us. We went ashore and away, off the beach as fast as we could, it was still of course very much under shell-fire; and a lot more vehicles and personnel to be landed also. You know the point of the cliff or hill off the beach where we went, and from there across land to the left of Bayeux, between a line or two of tapes marking a road clear of mines. We were bivouacked in an orchard there for a few days, coping with casualties etc. before moving to Tilly-sur-Seulles, where we stayed until the break-out via the Falaise Gap.

I seemed to do a lot of night theatre work at Tilly, two of us seemed to be on duty fairly regularly, but it was of no problem, I liked nursing, all aspects, and I am a person who was lucky in that I didn't need a lot of sleep. I've sometimes gone, in my career when nursing, for three days and two nights without going to bed. Everyone had guard duty at night, from 6 pm to 6 am, two hours on, four hours off. I would usually volunteer to do the worst two hours, i.e. 2 am to 4 am. then carry on and not wake my relief. He, of course, would be very grateful for the extra sleep; I would light the cookhouse fires and brew the first tea of the day. But here I go again digressing ...

So, at Tilly-sur-Seulles, the only thing I ever got used to was having a shower in the stream or little river nearby. Absolutely necessary, of course, but no clothes on, and bullets and shells all around the place. I had a "near miss" at one point from a sniper; I thought it was a bee, my mate said, "Yes, a big one, with a gun that he was using for a sting." We had some fun.

Strangely enough, aeroplanes and their bombing and strafing held no worries for me at all. We are funny creatures, are we not?

And then we moved up to the perimeter of the bridgehead, the time to break out had arrived, we were near Thury Harcourt, and we received a continuous stream of casualties for 36 hours non-stop. Then we had to pack up and go, our tanks had broken through, a road had been bulldozed through Caen and we went out and through that dreadful, many kilometres long, valley of death. Cattle, horses, but also of course innumerable men; the stench was indescribable, and lingered in our clothes, on our skin, in our hair, for days afterwards, something that took many years to leave one's consciousness; not, I think, that it ever really does leave one.

I have been back to Tilly-sur-Seulles to the cemetery there, and marvelled at the neatness and attention that it was being given. Jean, Solange, that particular holiday when we met you was full of a lot of strange events, so it seemed that I had to go on holiday at that particular time. You know the circumstances of our meeting. My wife and I stayed in the hotel on the corner of the cross-roads at the bottom of the hill, I knew every inch of Tilly, we were told about the cemetery, and as I had been there at its inception we went to visit; I still have a photo somewhere of my footsteps in the dew on the grass. 8 am. As we came away, another car drew up from which three elderly people (2 men, 1 lady) descended. The old lady called to me and asked if there was a grave to a Scotsman (and gave his name). I had seen the grave and the name. We took her to it, and then showed her his name in the book of remembrance, and gave her the visitor's book to sign. It was all too much for her and we held and comforted her. Apparently, the lad had been wounded, they had sheltered and looked after him until the Germans had gone — after the war they had emigrated to Canada, and this was their first visit back, and they wondered if he had died.

That holiday had so many incidents, it was unbelievable.

For now, my friends

Adieu

Pearl et Arthur"

 

I visited the CWGC cemetery at Tilly this July to pay my respects to Keith Douglas, that most accomplished poet, artist and author. He died at the age of 24; what a terrible waste.

 

Afternoon all,

I've also posted this to the 168th LFA thread:

I'm refusing to give up on here, and I hope one of you see my comments soon.

Still on with tracing my Grandfathers footstep's through Normandy. For the 80th anniversary of D Day this year we went to France on holiday and visited the Tilly sur Suelles museum for the first time. Spoke to the clerk on the desk (very pleasant and very helpful) showed my grandfathers diary and had a discussion on it. My grandfathers info is being passed on to the curator and i am eagerly awaiting an email response.

I have also bought Stéphane's book, and I have deducted that on the eve of the advance they stayed in and around the Jardins du Chateau de Brecy. This is backed by the commander of the 8th Armored, and my Grandads account of staying too the left of Bayeux in an orchard.
As the 8th advanced from the NE of Tilly, I can only guess that the temporary field hospital/dressing station that my Grandad talks about is some where around the church possibly near to the memorial for the Lancers. I'm still to find any references outside of my grandads writings, but I have now started the procedure to obtain a copy of the war diary for the 168th so hopefully that will confirm.

I've also found a book written by a member of the 168th called Tom Fleming, so I've bought that and am awaiting its arrival. He may not have been in the same 1 of the 4 sections as my grandfather but we will see.

I'll write and update again as these two references land with myself.

Speak soon
Nathan

 

This may (may not ) be of interest ? Extract from History Of 149 (Northumbrian) Field Ambulance From June 1943 - Jan 1945 WO 223/35

The text is copywrite so here`s a link to the extract :-

Extract from History Of 149 (Northumbrian) Field Ambulance From June 1943 - Jan 1945


Snippet for those who appear reluctant to follow posted links

"They moved to a site near JERUSALEM Cross Roads (MR T 822722) and opened a CCP for the Armd Div. evacuating patients through the 149‘ ADS at DAMIGNY. After about 48 hours, the Durham Bde moved up to take over from the armour, and 'B' Coy reverted to command. It therefore stayed in situ as 151 Bde CCP and the ADS also remained in position. By 14th June the Brigade with a Bn of 56 Bde under command was heavily involved in the TILLY-sur-SEULES-LINGEVRES Sector "

Kyle

 

Hi.
The museum is great, and Stephane's books are always so well written and researched. I was lucky to spend some time with him a few years back.
May I ask what unit your grandfather was with?
Regards
Chris

 

Hi Chris

My Grandad was in section 4 of the 168th Light Field Ambulance.

I received the book written by Tom Fleming who was also a member of the 168th, but he never mentions Tilly at all. All he says is that he was based around Bayeux, and then has drawings of a local church which is Sainte Marguerite at Ducy.
I'm still awaiting the 168th's War diary from Kew, as soon as that arrives i may be able to fill in a couple more blanks.

 

Hi Claire,

I cant help too much with the 200th LFA, but my Grandfather was there with the 168th, hence i have only really bee doing my research on his unit.
What I can confirm is that the was a Hospital/Aid Post at map reference 811749 which is just to the north of the Jerusalem Crossroads on the D6 in the first field on the east side of the road to the south of Feugrais.
The first elements of the 168th landed here on the 12th of June, with the rest of the regiment arriving by the next day. In the war diary of the 168th the only other field ambulances that are mentioned are the 146th and the 187th.
The only other field casualty clearing points and regimental aid posts that I have knowledge of are from Jerusalem down and across to Hill 103 as this was the main area of attack for the brigades that these field ambulances supported.
I've not seen or heard of any mention of a visit from Monty to the area (YET), and I didn't see any pictures in the museum at Tilly.
The only thing I can think is if your Uncles unit was to the east of Tilly around the Lingevres area? Stephane's book does have one picture of some ambulance personel and its captioned that the casualties are being evacuated towards the area of Verrieres.
Unfortunately the only real way of finding out is to request a copy of the War Diary.

Hope some of that helps.
Nathan

 

Nathan

What are the map references (and hopefully dates) for the locations you outline in the Jerusalem / Point 103 area.

This is a topic that's of natural interest to me - my ww2talk avatar refers!

Steve

 

Hi Nathan

Many thanks for your post. Apologies for my late reply. I have just returned from France.

The information you provide is very useful. I do wonder if with fighting difficult in this area, and the German counter-attacks, that Light Field Ambulance (LFA) units, Casualty Clearing Stations (CCS's), Field Dressing Stations (FDS's) and Advanced Dressing Stations (ADS's) of the RAMC had to move a fair bit.

I don't know if you have viewed the IWM video footage I linked into my previous posts? The footage is listed as being that of a CCS taken close to Buceels, just north of Tilly. My Great Uncle definitely served there as at one point it is possible to see a noticeboard which shows it's the camp of 'A Company, 200th Field Ambulance'! His Company!

So, I was thinking that maybe the CCS in the video was sited close to the current Jerusalem War Cemetery - as this is just north of Buceels. However, your information tells me that other types of aid stations for casualties, were understandably dotted around the area surrounding Tilly. I think your Grandfather was at a LFA station somewhere close by - most likely closer to the Tilly front line that my Great Uncle. So, the CCS could have been at a location you mention, further from Tilly than I believed, just north of the Jerusalem crossroads, 811749.

I realise that the information I am seeking - trying to confirm the exact location of the CCS - is not in your area of interest but if you do happen to come across anything further about the RAMC aid posts around Tilly, I would be grateful if you could get in touch again.

I am currently trying to transcribe the first War Diary of my Great Uncle's unit WO177/798 but do not have the second War Diary WO177/799 which covers the Battle of Normandy. I hope to request this and finally receive a response to my request for his service record from the NA, which I have been awaiting for many months now.

So, thank you again for getting in touch and for adding to my current knowledge.

If anyone else has an info, please do get in contact.

Best wishes

Claire

 

Hi!

I don't know if you have had a reply to your post before now but if your grandfather drove an ambulance, this could suggest that he served with the RASC though by 1944, many members of the RAMC were driving their own ambulances rather than have someone to do it for them. However, the service number in his service book - 4386987 - would indicate that he could have been a member of the Green Howards. See this link which might help: Army Service Numbers 1920 - 1942

Good luck in your efforts to obtain the service record.

Kind regards

Claire