The 6 million

Discussion in 'The Holocaust' started by ralph levitt, Jun 9, 2012.

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  1. ralph levitt

    ralph levitt Discharged

    It is true to say that (nearly) six million Jews perished during the period of the
    Holocaust but it is not true to say all these (nearly) six million were victims of
    the Holocaust---------in fact hundreds of thousands were victims of the war.
    The Holocaust victims were targeted as Jews while the others died in the same
    way as did Poles, Serbs, Greeks, etc.
    Some group and individual examples will make this clear.
    EXAMPLES:
    The siege of Leningrad. Some one million people died during the almost three
    year long siege, including tens of thousands of Jews. The latter were not
    Holocaust victims---they died in the same way as their non-Jewish neighbors.
    Over 140,000 Jews died in service in the Red Army. Most were war victims
    (excluding some thousands of POWs who were Holocaust victims).
    Bombing. Tens of thousands of Jews died during German strafing of refugee
    columns and bombing of hospitals, factories, schools and other public buildings---------they were war victims and not Holocaust victims.
    General Of The Army Ivan Chernychevsky---a Jew---commanded 3rd.
    Byelorussian Front. A Front command was the largest Soviet formation and
    the commanders included the cream of Red Army command-----Zhukov, Konev,
    Vatutin, Vassilevsky, Bagramian. General Chernyshevsky died in combat in
    January, 1945----------he was a war victim, not a Holocaust victim.
    Shalom Axelrod was an officer at Stalingrad, in charge of receiving supplies
    and fresh troops across the Volga. He was killed by shell fire----he was a
    combat death and not a Holocaust victim.
    This list could go on for many pages but the conclusion should be clear.
    And we should note that hundreds of thousands of Holocaust victims were
    not killed by the Germans but by their allies----Croatia, Slovakia, Romania,
    and pro-Nazi militias.
    Does the above matter?
    Only if you want to describe and understand the war with accuracy.
     
  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    This all sounds a little familiar...

    So, following your logic, let's say the total is 5 million. Is that less of an outrage now?
     
  3. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Ralph Levitt

    I see you say:
    Does the above matter?
    Only if you want to describe and understand the war with accuracy.
    As Paul says:
    This all sounds a little familiar...
    Paul is of course 100% correct and as far as the subject is concerned we have certainly been here before as a simple search on the words 6 million would soon have shown you.

    I think I could do worse than quote from a posting I made when the subject was last discussed.

    In 2008 my wife and I spent a week in Prague.

    One of the tours we "did" during our stay was to the Jewish Quarter and I would like to tell you about the Pinkas Synagogue (see link below).

    The founder of this building was a Rabbi Pinkas, hence the name. and like thousands of other visitors we had come to see some walls.

    What is unique about this Memorial Wall is the fact that it lists all the names, birth dates and dates of disappearance of the Jewish Czech people who disappeared under the Nazis and in the camps.

    As my wife and I walked round the rooms and studied the names inscribed on the whitewashed walls it would not have mattered a damn to us how many names there actually were..... 1,000, 5,000, 10,000, 50,000....... these were real people and the only reason for their death was the fact that they were of Jewish origin.

    6,000,000 a "true" figure ?

    Don't make me weep.
    Ron


    Pinkas Synagogue - Memorial to the 80,000 Jewish Victims of the Holocaust from Bohemia and Moravia
     

    Attached Files:

  4. urqh

    urqh Senior Member

    I just have to comment...I know I have no need but I still read this forum.

    Murder is murder...no matter how it is committed. In this case planned murder..If not encompassed in the holocaust I think its safe to say if they were not killed in any other way...they would have ended up victims of the holocaust...Its like saying...gas chambers...not all jewish folk killed or gypsy folk or disabled or whatever were killed in gas chambers...some were starved...died of inhuman conditions in camps like typhoid etc...Deliberate negligence...murder is murder however it is committed...Is that accurate enough for you?
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    "The 6 million" ?

    I thought this was going to be a 'Euromillions' thread. There's about as much chance of me winning that lottery as there is of the original poster understanding why this first post is not going to be looked on favourably.
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Ralph

    Look at your post again


    Think before you post




    regards
    Clive
     
  7. 7mark

    7mark Active Member

    why is it important? at the end of the day 50% of the worlds population of Jewish people died at the hand of the Nazi's which was 67% of Europes Jews. Hitler was half way to completing his dreams. How they died is unimportant.
     
  8. 7mark

    7mark Active Member

    theres plenty of sites with facts and figures, the estimate for the top death camps is just over 3 million, most of the other 15,000 camps have no figures, so the final total will never be known.
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    The thought would possibly have some passing interest if all Jews who died or were killed during the war were listed somewhere as 'Holocaust Victims'.

    Does anybody know if that is the case?

    Reading on perhaps the closest thing to such a list being built (and on Nizkor), that does not appear to be so. On cross-referencing a decent sized handful of chaps who died 'military deaths' but were also Jewish I can find no correlations yet:
    The Shoah Victims' Names Recovery Project - Yad Vashem
    So a distinction it seems, on initial inspection, is already made there between those killed by 'Final Solution' activity and those killed in more conventional Military service. (Though, naturally, the Yad Vashem Database is as yet incomplete, so there is room for some uncertainty on this point.)

    Debatable, maybe, as so many more deaths can be laid at Hitler's door and added to his overall slate, but It doesn't appear that those military deaths are included in the '6 Million' figure anyway.

    So... what makes you think they are, Ralph?
    It's probably time to flash some sources rather than assertions - Interesting things, sources...
     
  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    This all sounds a little familiar...

    So, following your logic, let's say the total is 5 million. Is that less of an outrage now?

    Yes, Paul, 5 million is a much, much better number. I am so glad he clarified it for us.

    I will sleep much better now.:glare:

    Originally Posted by Von Poop [​IMG]
    So... what makes you think they are, Ralph?
    It's probably time to flash some sources rather than assertions - Interesting things, sources...



    "Sources? We ain't got no sources. We don't need no sources! I don't have to show you any stinkin' sources!" :lol:
     
  11. 7mark

    7mark Active Member

    So lets increase the figure, 4.85% of women are pregnant at any time, lets say half of 6 million are women (obviously), a women bearing a child is not worthy of work then 145,500, women and unborn child got exterminated. I think unborn child should be included in overall numbers. So where does it end? the list quoted above has 4,000,000 names, i think sometimes accurate measurements should be ignored and not dwelled on. If you are so interested then list deaths, facts, sources on all Jewish deaths, and why not add generalized civilian deaths also. It would make a good reference for number mungers. When figures are this size, why not add 1 million to the figure, whats the obsession with decreasing it!!!!
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  13. 7mark

    7mark Active Member

    i think this post should be deleted as its point is pointless and has no meaning, the facts are easily searchable on the internet
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Give it time maybe, but whenever there's even a potential ambiguity in these sorts of thread I sometimes prefer to let them play for a short while to see what happens.
    If nothing else they often provide a refresher on certain issues.
     
  15. 7mark

    7mark Active Member

    Very true, sometimes certain subjects become undiscussable due to emotions rather facts
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    sometimes certain subjects become undiscussable due to emotions rather facts

    Sadly that does happen on here now and then, even in the 1940 section :lol:
     
  17. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Von Poop
    The thought would possibly have some passing interest if all Jews who died or were killed during the war were listed somewhere as 'Holocaust Victims'.

    Does anybody know if that is the case?
    I presume that you were simply being rhetorical ?

    just in case you weren't, consider the following

    I am recently back from a visit to the CWGC cemetery at Durnbach in Bavaria where I paid my respects to the 2840 servicemen buried or commemorated there.

    Included amongst the dead who lay there are 22 Jewish servicemen, including a much loved brother.

    None of these Jewish men have, or would ever be, described as Holocaust victims although, in truth, had it not been for the evil created by Hitler and his Third Reich all the men buried at Durnbach would probably have lived a full and worthwhile life.


    On the other hand, cousins of mine who were living in France in the '40s, who were later deported to the camps and of whom none were to survive, these poor souls, without any fear of contradiction, were victims of the Holocaust.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/ww2-news-articles/30818-almost-two-thirds-jewish-holocaust-victims-identified.html#post364047 (See my posting #2)


    Ron
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Just for reference, we did a lengthy and at times interesting, other times no so much at an older thread here (I've just noticed it was already mentioned, sorry). The closing post (literally) no. 286 sums it up pretty well, but some pretty good argumentation along the way. Perhaps going through it might be a useful exercise as well as I think repeating what was said before is a bit boring.

    6 million a rounf figure? Yes. People of diverse religions and ethnicities caught in the Holocaust programme? Yes. Jews killed outside the Holocaust programme? Yes. But nice cut and paste job in the starting post.
     
  19. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    As Owen says:
    Owen is of course 100% correct


    wasnt me. that was Paul.
    ;)
     
  20. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Owen

    wasnt me. that was Paul.
    :wink:
    Ooooops !........ duly amended

    Thanks !

    Ron
     
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