TECH O

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by Craig day, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. Craig day

    Craig day Member

    Hi
    I am trying fit Officers from the "weekly return of Officers" that I found in the war dairies at kew into
    the WE establishment using the template for a "1943 Motor battalion" that I cam across on bayonet strength.
    So far so good except in the list of the officers, A Lieutenant is listed as holding the appointment of TECH O.
    I am guessing this is Technical Officer but I cant find any reference this roll (i.e. what did he actually do)
    and where he fits into the Command Structure, any help please.

    Regards
    Craig
     
  2. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    It would indeed refer to the Battalion Technical Officer. It's a role particular to fully motorised units as I recall, also found in the Armoured Regiment. There's a cough and a spit regarding the duties of the Tech Offr in "Notes on the Organization and Tactical Employment of a Motor Battalion (provisional)", which is undated but looks around 1941-42 from the WE info.

    "There is also at Battalion Headquarters a Battalion Technical Officer who receives messages of vehicles broken down and takes the necessary steps for their recovery and repair".

    There's a bit more in MTP41 (The Motor Battalion) - "The technical adjutant is the commanding officer's assistant and adviser on all matters of policy regarding maintenance, inspection and repair. He should organize maintenance and maintain records in this connection".

    So not REME, but the officer in charge of overall maintenance standards through the unit.

    Gary
     
  3. Craig day

    Craig day Member

    Hi Gary
    I am so glad you replied to this post as I was hoping you would do so as you seem to be everything "establishment on the net"
    I understand that motor battalions formed "support companies" early in 1943. From reading the War diaries of 10th Bat Rifle Brigade they did this on 20/1/1943. They formed the following four platoons:- 1. Scout 2.Motor 3. MMG 4.Anti-Tank (using the existing A/T platoon) and at a later date a 3" mortar platoon because the mortars within the individual platoons were not be used. It is stated that the support company was formed using the personnel from D Company but throughout Feb, March, April & May D Company is still mentioned although it seems to be when anti-tank defence was required. Am I right in thinking the support company was formed within D company instead of it. If so, would D company have retained its usual 3 fighting platoons as well.
    Its bit of a long winded question but I hope you understand it,

    Regards

    Craig
     
  4. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    So at the time in question, 10 RB was the Motor Bn for 26th Armd Bde in 6th Armd Div, and this was a few months into their campaign in North Africa.

    As they were part of Home Forces prior to departing for North Africa, my understanding is that they would have gone out on the original WE, which was a Bn HQ, HQ Coy and four Motor Coys, the latter each three Motor Pls and one Scout Pl. There were quite a few amendments made to that WE through 1940-42, one of the more important being the addition of a 3-in Mortar Det to each Motor Coy HQ. There's a late 1942 amendment to the Home Inf Bn WE re an increase in NCO ranks when the Bn is armed with 2-pr anti-tank guns, even though these guns themselves are not included on that particular WE, or detailed in an amendment to it.

    I think I formed the (still unsupported) opinion that the Inf Bns of Divs in 1st Army were issued with 2-pr guns (probably six based on the allocation of one Serjeant and three L-Sjts and three Corporal ranks), but had to form their Anti-tank Platoon from their available manpower. Realistically that would mean either taking men from Rifle Platoons, or converting one full Platoon instead. There was a similar issue with Vickers MMGs at the time, as none of the Inf Divs that went as part of the Torch landings included an MG Bn, which at the time were supposed to be replaced by Support Bns. In the interim it appears the Inf Bns in these Divs were issued some MMGs but again had to find crews from their current strength. This last point is somewhat fuzzy and it's a long time since I looked at that particular query.

    Presuming the same additions of 2-pr guns and MMGs was made to 10 RB, that would account for two of the four Platoons you've detailed in D Coy from the WD. My feeling is that they converted two Motor Pls from D Coy to handle the anti-tank guns and Vickers respectively in the first instance, leaving one Motor and the Scout Pl in place. Subsequently it sounds like they concentrated the 3-in mortars into a single Pl as well and added that to D Coy. There may be a reference in the WD as to how long the spare Motor Pl and Scout Pl lasted.

    I was trying to acquaint myself with the variations of the usual A, B, C and D titles for Coys seen in the Rifle Brigade a while back on the forum. As was seen with both 1 and 8 RB, Support Coy, when it appeared, could still be referred to by its original letter, as it was normally formed by switching a Motor Coy to the role. So the continued reference to D Coy, even though it was now S Coy, would be perfectly in keeping with the Brigade.

    I hope that helps some,

    Gary
     
  5. Craig day

    Craig day Member

    Hi Gary
    Thanks for the very detailed reply, you certainly know your stuff. All of what you have said pretty much fits with the conclusion that I had come to whilst plodding through the war diaries.
    The only difference being that 10 RB had a dedicated Anti-Tank Platoon with 2 pounder guns commanded by a lieutenant presumably in the HQ company. When this moved to the support company it would already have had the required manpower. By the time of the battles at Thala (Kasserine Pass) in Mid Feb 1943 they had the brand new 17 pounders.
    Your quite right about using the 2 disbanded motor platoons for the additional manpower for the MMG platoon and supplementing the anti-tank platoon.
    The penny has now dropped regarding the formation of a motor platoon. (I was thinking along the lines of a MT section) but of course, they kept a conventional motor platoon which explains why D coy was still carrying out routine patrolling.
    Lastly they already had a scout (Carrier platoon).

    If you work it out the 36 officers on the Weekly return of officers against WE is just about enough to cover the command structure although they requested 10 extra ordinary ranks.
    One last question, do you know how the platoons would have been numbered, I know 6 platoon was in B coy
    Thanks for your help
    Craig
     
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Platoon numbering does seem to have varied a bit in the Rifle Brigade. Normally in Infantry Bns No.1 Platoon was in HQ Company, and then progressed from there. 8 RB appear to have numbered their Platoons starting in E Company, so skipping HQ Company, and just going through the Motor Coys. If 6 Platoon was in B Coy then 10 RB may have done something similar, so perhaps 1 to 4 in A, then 5 to 8 in B and so on.

    Interesting to see they had their Anti-tank Pl up and running from the start, though it makes sense of course that the crews had been trained while in the UK. I wonder if they rejigged things to find the men necessary or perhaps took some of their First Reinforcements to provide the extras. Re the change of guns, does it say 17-pdrs? They were a relatively new weapon in early 1943 and being handled exclusively by the RA as I understood it, so I would have expected 10 RB to convert from 2-prs to 6-prs.

    Gary
     
  7. Craig day

    Craig day Member

    Hi Gary
    Thanks for the reply,
    So would the scout/carrier platoon within each motor Coy be known as such or would they have a number?, the same goes for Anti-tank, mmg and mortar platoons within D/support coy.
    I know from the Weekly Return For Other Ranks that they requested extra men to fulfil the ranks of the new support Coy.
    Regarding the guns, I know they started with 2 pdrs, then changed to 6 pdrs. In a book that I have, Indelible memories, written by Lt A Pawson, who was a platoon commander in C Coy, he wrote regarding the battle at Thala "In mid-afternoon we received a boost of spirit as our battalion anti-tank platoon came driving up. It was equipped with four of the new 17 pdr A/T Guns (so secret they were code named "Pheasants" and, as far as I know, this might have been the first time on was fired in action in North Africa. At last it gave us a gun as good as the German 88mm)
    Do you know the WE for the anti-tank and MMG Platoons?
    Regards

    Craig
     
  8. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    The Scout Pls were numbered in the same sequence as the rest of the Platoons, normally it seems the Scout Pls would be 1, 5, 9 and 13, based on the platoon numbering starting in A Coy and continuing through four identical Motor Coys. If they converted a full Motor Pl to an MG Pl or an Atk Pl, I would suppose they simply kept their old platoon number. When 8 RB converted their E Coy to the support role (on the 1943-45 WE) it looks as though they gave up numbers 1 to 4 and picked up from 17 Pl instead (as H Coy finished at 16 Pl).

    I've not seen anything re how Battalions might be expected to organise their non-WE Anti-tank and MMG Platoons. I feel there would have been something, what throws me the most is how they were expected to move the guns and ammunition without some increase in transport. There were a fair few vehicles in a standard British Inf Bn, compared to a US or German equivalent certainly, however they all had a load carrying role so I don't think there was much overhead to work with.

    Gary
     
  9. Laochra Beag

    Laochra Beag Active Member

    Hi Gary

    Browsing for info on Motor Bn came across this interesting thread.
    Re the movement of 'non-establishment' weapons I wonder if they used the Pl/Section trucks? Maybe 3 weapon Pl with HQ vehicle acting as 'A' echelon with first line ammo re-supply?
     

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