Sten Guns

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Gerry Chester, Sep 29, 2012.

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  1. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Anyone know if Sten Guns were carried in 21st Tank Brigade Churchills? Definitely they were not in Churchills of 25th Tank Brigade.

    Cheers,

    Gerry
     
  2. JonS

    JonS Member

    Anyone know if Sten Guns were carried in 21st Tank Brigade Churchills? Definitely they were not in Churchills of 25th Tank Brigade.
    Gerry,
    It is my understanding that the Sten was never in widespread issue or use for any unit in Italy, and that the Thompson was used by "everyone" instead.

    But I would really like to be able to confirm that.

    The following is from Wikipedia (yes, I know): "The Sten was not used in Italy due to constraints on the shipping of ammunition; .45ACP was already being used in that theatre by the US Army and a requirement for the 9 mm pistol round used by the Sten would have been in competition for limited shipping space."

    The reasoning seems a bit tenuous, but in my various reading I haven't come across the Sten being used in Italy, but have come across references to the Thompson.
     
  3. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    Sten Gun Use
    Here's a discussion on Sten gun usage that disputes the claim that it was ammo issues that prevented the Sten being used in the Italian theater.
    Post #15 in the thread seems to be the most complete look at the issue

    It seems Stens were not commonly available to Allied troops serving in Sicily/Italy until about mid-1944, although the reason is not completely clear. If you do a google search it seems that the internet has become infected with some story along the lines that "the Sten was not issued because of the difficulty of supplying 9mm ammo alongside existing.45ACP for the Thompsons". This seems to be a typically fallacious story, for a number of reasons:

    1. Stens had already been used in North Africa by British[​IMG] airborne troops; hence the 1st & 8th Army supply systems would have already contained 9mm;

    2. As there were already many small-arms ammo types being used by Allied forces, 9mm hardly created an extra problem; the British-equipped troops (including Polish, French[​IMG], Italian[​IMG], Greek and other non-Commonwealth contingents) were already using a .45ACP and .38 mix;

    3. Small-arms ammo for pistols and SMGs is a tiny fraction of an army's logistic chain - the overwhelming part being artillery ammunition, bulk fuel and rations.

    Stens do appear with allied troops in Italy in the later stages of the campaign, and they were also dropped in large numbers to Italian partisans from early 1944 onwards. I expect that the relative scarcity early on was more to do with the fact that, during the 1943 re-equipping of Commonwealth armies in UK and North Africa (after the defeat of the Afrika Korps), it appears that Thompsons were replaced in UK by Stens, and that the surplus Thompsons were then concentrated in North Africa (1st and 8th Armies) and the Far East (14th Army). A similar thing seems to have happened with N04/No1 rifles, and other types of equipments - e.g. that there was just a process of arms rationalisation in preparation for the final phase of the war.
    [​IMG]

    Italian partisans received quantities of them.

    I also found this image which places a Sten in the Med.
    [​IMG]

    but as to their use in 21st Tank Brigade Churchills, there I have drawn a blank.
    Cheers
    Mark
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  5. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Thank you gentleman. One of the last few nails of the coffin of you know who will soon be hammered home. Shortly thereafter the lid will be prised off for the world to see the "body".

    Cheers,

    Gerry
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gerry
    Whilest I cannot speak for the rest of the 21st Tank Brigade - I do know that all the

    Tanks of 145th Regt RAC - which your NIH replaced at Cesena in December '44 were

    equipped with TWO Thompson Sub-Machine Guns each plus FIVE service revolvers.....

    As I clearly recall being ahead of the Seaforths one day at the Gothic and being suggested

    by our Commander Trevor Williams(RIP) to round up some 20 Paras along with our Gunner

    Harry Grey - who unfortunately forgot to load his Tommy gun with a magazine and had

    left his cleaning brush - up the spout-which caused great deal of merriment all around and

    the paras going into captivity with tins of 50 Players and a million Italian matches

    Cheers - Tom
     

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