Stalin - "We" supported him - Could never trust him!

Discussion in 'General' started by spidge, Sep 13, 2006.

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  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I had an interesting discussion "again" with a Russian adversary on "another" forum last week (named after a good Soviet Tank) and it made me think that the "allies" could never have trusted Stalin as far as they could throw him.

    While trying to finally get my friend to answer a question instead of continually making ridiculous unsupported statements and pushing his hate of the allies, I listed a range of questions and asked him to name the person to whom I was referrring:

    We have to remind you again that the United States, unlike the brutal regime of Stalin was unable to declare war in Europe. Although Stalin stuck a knife in the back of the French and the British and screamed for help like a stucked pig after Germany invaded, they did what they could by supplying Lend & Lease to the Soviet people.

    The United States nor Britain nor Canada were obliged to assist the Soviet Union. After Stalin's deceitful backdoor alliance with Germany they did so because they could see the result of not assisting the Soviet Union was the total control of both Western and Eastern Europe by Germany.

    Do you remember who cut ties with France and Britain so he could jump into bed with Hitler?
    Do you remember September 1939?
    Do you remember who made a pact with Hitler so he was free to start his war in Europe?
    Do you remember who continued to trade with Germany after the war commenced against the Allies in 1939?
    Do you remember who signed a secret protocol with Germany that they would not assist Britain and France against Germany if Germany invaded Poland.
    Do you remember that during the first years of the war, this economic agreement helped Germany bypass the British blockade.
    Do you remember who invaded Poland with Hitler and agreed on a carve up of that country?
    Do you remember who slaughtered thousands of those Polish soldiers and citizens in his grab for a "Sphere of Influence" in Poland.
    Do you remember who took over the countries of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in his grab for land?
    Do you remember the 150,000 people in those Baltic states he sent to their deaths by massacre and deportation to labour camps in the first year.

    Your answer to all of the above should be Joseph Stalin.

    I say again, that without the assistance of the allies in men and materiel and the loss of 140,000 allied airmen over Germany destroying their ability to wage war, the Soviet Union would have been defeated.



    The answer from my friend: OK ANSWER IS STALIN.....SO WHAT!:eek:
     
  2. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    He's still at it then. Indoctrination or what. Bad when even Lenin said at all costs that Stalin was not to take power - his own senior. Black is white with some people. On the forum that we don't talk of, early on there was another member with a Chinese sounding moniker, from Sweden -must have been brothers. ***********,when a certain tank spoke of Stalin, voiced his approval of Stalin's methods, but when asked to back up his comments couldn't support his arguments. Then again Bulgaria was one of Soviet Russia's staunchest allies.

    As mentioned in the first paragraph Lenin wanted Stalin to be kept away from the leadership/topspot. He even falsified reports so he got the top post. The mysterious unfortunate deaths of Kirov, Bulganin and one other. The fact that Stalin mistreated his own family. His own paranoia. The fact that he was in pain and surrounded by his own vomit and urine, but doctors were terrified too terrified to treat him in case they were sent to the gulags. Not exactly condusive to free speech.

    Without being accused of adopting any moral or political high ground, the West has it's faults but they pale when you listen to some of the brainwashing coming out of the former Soviet bloc and satellites. If East Germany and the like were such utopias of the marxist/leninist ideologies- why weren't people allowed freedom of movement. It was one of the compounding/compelling reasons for the wall.

    The only redeeming part, if redeeming is the right term/phrase is that if anyone else had been in power the Germans would have taken Russia. But in saying that if others had been in charge,say in the mould of Lenin, I don't think there would have been a Soviet/German pact. I think they would have kept well out of the war in the West.
     
  3. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    As a matter of interest Spidge, the questions in the latter part of your post. Did the certain tank give any interesting responses/retorts to them or did he go off on the anti -West tangent as one was prone to do. Or were they were rhetorical in the context that they were put to him.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Please do not name any members of another Forum.
     
  5. Cpl Rootes

    Cpl Rootes Senior Member

    i read a quote by a man who was a Sgt in the Russian army when he was asked about Stalin he said someting like:

    That son-of-a-bitch Stalin!! Any other person would of bombed Berlin from the air and with artillery, but not Stalin!! He insisted that we go right through the middle! I lost many comerades in that most stupid of all stupid attacks.
     
  6. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    As a matter of interest Spidge, the questions in the latter part of your post. Did the certain tank give any interesting responses/retorts to them or did he go off on the anti -West tangent as one was prone to do. Or were they were rhetorical in the context that they were put to him.

    Like water off a duck's back and went straight back to they had to beat the Germans on their own!

    Everybody knows the Soviets fought with great heroism yet many are in denial that anybody else contributed to their achievement.
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    There is an opinion by some in the Soviet Union that America and indeed the allies collectively did not do anything to assist them and they had to do it all on their own up until D-Day.

    Many would have seen the list of Lend Lease sent by America however it is exhaustive in its numbers of line by line article.

    These percentages below, do not include, British and Canadian contributions.

    e.g. Enough food to feed an army of 12,000,000, 3 meals a day for the entire length of the war.


    80% of all canned meat.
    92% of all railroad locomotives, rolling stock and rails.
    57% of all aviation fuel.
    53% of all explosives.
    74% of all truck transport.
    88% of all radio equipment.
    53% of all copper.
    56% of all aluminum.
    60+% of all automotive fuel.
    74% of all vehicle tires.
    12% of all armored vehicles.
    14% of all combat aircraft.
    The list includes a high percentage of the high grade steel, communications
    cable, canned foods of all types, medical supplies, and virtually every modern
    machine tool used by Soviet industry. Not to mention the "know-how required to
    use and maintain this equipment.</pre>
     
  8. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    i read a quote by a man who was a Sgt in the Russian army when he was asked about Stalin he said someting like:

    Quote:
    That son-of-a-bitch Stalin!! Any other person would of bombed Berlin from the air and with artillery, but not Stalin!! He insisted that we go right through the middle! I lost many comerades in that most stupid of all stupid attacks.

    Just on that topic, there are some percentages here that are quite interesting also.

    Whilst the British Commonwealth and the USAAF lost 140,000 aircrew doing what Stalin couldn't or wouldn't, the Germans used the following Soldiers and equipment to attempt to counter the allied bomber offensive:

    Stalin did not believe that strategic bombing could be a real war winning effort.

    Perhaps Stalin did not realize that 55,000 anti-aircraft guns, including 75% of the 88mm guns were dedicated to shooting at bombers instead of Soviet T-34s.

    Perhaps he did not understand that nearly 2 million men were involved in the defense of the Reich against the strategic bomber offensive.

    75% of the Luftwaffe fighter arm was tied down defending German industry.

    20% of all artillery ammunition was allocated to anti-air defense of Germany.

    As a result of bombing, the Germans produced 35% less armor than they projected. 31% fewer aircraft (82% of that were fighters) and over 40% fewer trucks.

    Picture a three-fold increase in 88mm guns, and the crews to man them.

    Picture 35% more tanks for the Wehrmacht. Picture 40% more trucks being available. Envision the German fighter strength doubling on the eastern front.

    Picture the Soviets being unable to win the big victories of 1944.

    Indeed, Churchill was correct; the bomber offensive was a "second front".

    We can't exclude the value of Lend Lease either. It may be fair to say that the Soviet Union survived because the western Allies wanted them to.
     
  9. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Stalin did not believe that strategic bombing could be a real war winning effort.

    They did not have the strategic bombers needed to carry out any long range attacks. I believe there were only about eight PE8 bombers.

    The only every strategic bombing raid carried out was againt the camp holding his son!
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    They did not have the strategic bombers needed to carry out any long range attacks. I believe there were only about eight PE8 bombers.

    The only every strategic bombing raid carried out was againt the camp holding his son!

    They built 79 to 41/42 (western sources) and the Soviets numbers are 96 to 1944.

    They raided Berlin in August 1941 with 8 aircraft of which only 5 Pe-8's made it and did not drop their bombs on target.

    Trivia regarding Stalin's son:

    In 1943, an attempt was made by the Germans to exchange Jakov for Field Marshal Paulus who was captured after the fall of Stalingrad. The request was refused by Stalin. Although he grieved for his son he is quoted as saying "I will not exchange a private for a Field Marshal".
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    In reference to the poster of whom we cannot speak it pains me as a student of the Eastern Front that most discussions degenerate into "who did more to beat the Axis?" There was another poster of American origin who had a fetish for a certain aircraft and between him and the other guy, talking about the Eastern Front became impossible. Even now I still am nervous posting about the East because of the effect those two had on discussions about it.
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    There seems to be a certain difficulty in coming to a consensus when some have a historical viewpoint that is clouded by the cold war and not what actually happened in ww2.

    A debate without knives would be a great change in discussing one of /or the most important theatre of the war. When total denial rears its ugly head it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion.
     
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    In reference to the poster of whom we cannot speak it pains me as a student of the Eastern Front that most discussions degenerate into "who did more to beat the Axis?" There was another poster of American origin who had a fetish for a certain aircraft and between him and the other guy, talking about the Eastern Front became impossible. Even now I still am nervous posting about the East because of the effect those two had on discussions about it.

    I for one would enjoy learning more about the Eastern Front from one like yourself.

    I am possibly as guilty as anyone else by not being able to control my emotions when people trivialise the number of deaths of Soviets compared to German compared to British etc and who then refuse to post references to support their views.

    Simply, if we have members who are that way inclined, they will be banned.

    Look forward to seeing threads on battles, technology, support and possibly some facts that are not as well known as we are all here to learn.
    (Yes, even Lend & Lease):p


    Who said: One single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic?
     
  14. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Simply, if we have members who are that way inclined, they will be banned.

    Who said: One single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic?

    The first part, surely we can introduce a sin bin rather than a all out ban! First offence one week. Second offence one month. Thrid offence permanant

    The second part was Stalin.
     
  15. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    I am possibly as guilty as anyone else by not being able to control my emotions when people trivialise the number of deaths of Soviets compared to German compared to British etc and who then refuse to post references to support their views.



    In May 1946 in a interview wirg Pravda, Stalin said that the final total was six million dead and fourteen million wounded that has become changed through time to become 20 million dead.

    Of the six million dead, how many were executed by the russians for their religious or political views?
     
  16. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    The first part, surely we can introduce a sin bin rather than a all out ban! First offence one week. Second offence one month. Thrid offence permanant

    Agree. It is just that some of the ones we have had would be up to three gongs very quickly.

    The second part was Stalin.
    Too true!
     
  17. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

     
  18. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    It looked like Stalin just got the official figures and decided to add them together to cover up the attrocities carried out by their own people.

    Sounds kind of understandable for your average genocidal dictator.
    ...
    ....
    .....
    Has anyone noticed that you chaps are 18 posts into a thread relating to Stalin & the Eastern front and nobody's thrown their toys out of the pram?? It could be a new world record... it's all.... Calm.;)

    Gotthard, I think 'they' may have gone away... Get your Ostfronts out!

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  20. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Sounds kind of understandable for your average genocidal dictator.
    ...
    ....
    .....
    Has anyone noticed that you chaps are 18 posts into a thread relating to Stalin & the Eastern front and nobody's thrown their toys out of the pram?? It could be a new world record... it's all.... Calm.;)

    Gotthard, I think 'they' may have gone away... Get your Ostfronts out!

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Well they had better stay away or play by the rules!
     

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