Stalag IVb

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Steven Dendy, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    Hi

    Hoping someone can help. I have been looking over my grandads war history.

    I know he was held in Stalag 344 (VIIIb) I have just looked on the national archives web site and the notes on there say he was held at Stalag IVB. Sadly I am kot able to go there or request a copy of the record at the moment.

    Does anyone know what the connection between the two camps are? I know he was in in Italy Campo 82. Wondering if this could of been a stoppo g camp before being moved to 322?

    Thanks
    Steve
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Might be worth giving his name and service number if you have it

    I dont believe there is a direct connection between the 2 camps, POW's were moved around and perhaps one of the camps was the reception camp for this being transferred from Italy to Germany before being moved into their 'final' camp

    Stalag 8B - Coordinates 50.53884°N 17.55872°E
    Stalag 4B - Coordinates 51.44598°N 13.283°E

    If you look at the list on this Wiki page then the Stalag areas are defined by their numbers
    German prisoner-of-war camps in World War II - Wikipedia - so any camp within the control of Military District IV (Dresden) would have the number Stalag IV, Oflag IV Dulag IV then other suffix's for more than 1 camp


    Give us his details and lets see what we can find

    TD

    Do you know if he completed a 'Liberation Questionnaire' ? one of our members created this website and could help you further if you need a copy - POW Liberation Questionnaires
     
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  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Your best way forward is to apply to Red Cross in Switzerland in May for copies of his records.

    Requests for information about people held during Spanish Civil War or Second World War: Quarterly limit reached

    It’s a free service. Pre Covid you received a reply by post not less than 4 months after submission of the enquiry.

    You need to be “up with the lark’s” to check the site at the given opening time as the enquiry window usually closes after a couple of hours due to subscription limit being reached.

    I’m sure if you post his name/army number or Regiment name members will turn up his POW details from Findmypast.

    Good Luck

    Steve
     
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  4. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    Hi thanks for the reply. I'll have a little digging around and see what I can find.

    Not take for the May Red Cross.

    Tricky Dicky his name is Jack Kinsey, service number 2660818

    Tullybrone thanks again, I know you have been a help before.

    Thanks again
     
  5. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    There had been a hint in December 1942 that, in view of the impending collapse of Italy, British prisoners held there would be transferred to Germany. But, in response to an inquiry by the Italian ambassador to the Vatican, Mussolini had replied that there was no truth in the report. Nevertheless, between 19-22 July, just before the fall of Mussolini on the 25th, almost 3000 prisoners from three camps – PG 82 Laterina, PG 53 and PG 73 (visit www.campifascisti.it and open the Documenti section for each camp) were transported to Germany and accommodated in Stalag IVB at Mühlberg before being dispersed to other Stalags, mainly to Stalag 344 Lamsdorf in Poland.. Men in other camps were warned at about the same time that they were soon to be moved to an unknown destination.

    source: Documents

    Your grandfather is listed on page 10:
    http://powsitaly.weebly.com/uploads/6/4/2/7/6427590/pg_82_to_lamsdorf_22_july_1943.pdf
     
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  6. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    ltdan thanks for that. I rember reading about him being transferred but nut being held at IVB that makes sense now.
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    This is from Ancestry database
    Original data: Prisoner of War Collections. Sussex, England: The Naval and Military Press
    UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
    Name: J Kinsey
    Rank: Guardsman
    Army Number: 2660818
    Regiment: Coldstream Guards
    POW Number: 221941
    Camp Type: Stalag
    Camp Number: 344
    Camp Location: Lambinowice, Poland

    I believe this is the last camp he was in that the Red Cross visited sometime in late 1944

    upload_2021-2-10_21-4-28.png
    This is from WO 392 again showing him in camp 344 which would be possibly recorded by the Red Cross earlier than the one above so he was probably transported from Italy to a holding camp for a short while then moved again to be finally ensconced in camp 344

    TD
     
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  8. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    Thanks again, this would all make sense. Had the info just needed help connecting the dots.
     
  9. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    The Wehrmacht's service instructions stipulated that the final registration of the individual prisoners was to take place exclusively in the Stalags and Oflags. This process was precisely regulated by the OKW in February 1939 in H.Dv. 38/5 "Dienstanweisung für den Kommandanten eines Kriegsgefangenen-Mannschafts-Stammlagers" (Service Instruction for the Commandant of a PoW-camp for enlisted men).

    This was Stalag IV-B where he received his permanent PoW identification number.
    From there he was transferred to Stalag 344 (renamed1943, previously Stalag VIII-B).
     
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  10. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    It might be worth getting his POW Index Card material from Kew when it reopens as in addition to it showing it contains a photo you may find the index card itself shows his work camp (my fathers didn’t but I’ve seen others that do) as Red Cross only provides Stalag details.

    Steve
     
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  11. Bruneval

    Bruneval Well-Known Member

    Morning Steve,

    Here are some more details for Jack Kinsey from TNA. Note they do hold a photo of Jack Kinsey on his POW Card; these photos are usually passport sized photos.


    Reference: WO 416/210/361
    Description:
    Name: Jack Kinsey.
    Date of Birth: 07/06/1920.
    Place of Birth: Wilmslow, Cheshire.
    Service: British Army.
    Rank: Guardsman.
    Regiment/Unit/Squadron: Coldstream Guards.
    Service Number: 2660818.
    Date of Capture: 21/06/1942.
    Theatre of Capture: Tobruk.
    Camp Name/Number: Stalag IVB Muhlberg.
    PoW number: 221941.
    Date of Death: [unspecified].
    Number of Photographs: 1.
    Number of Fingerprints: 1.
    Number of X-rays: 0.
    Number of Cards: 2.


    Regards

    Bruneval
     
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  12. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    Fantastic, thanks
     
  13. Cpl Hadaway

    Cpl Hadaway Member

    You might also find this useful: POW numbers assigned at the same time to men who would have been with him at the time his POW number was issued, numbered rearranged in consecutive order from the usual sources. Chances are one or more of the men adjacent to him would be a good friend from the Italian camp and would have went with him to the work camp

    Listing (incomplete) is from this site:

    circa 221950 Stalag 4B Numbers


    221898 344 Nutton, Rfn W K, 6912619, R Bde
    221899 344 Pope, Pte E T, 6855897, Hamp
    221900 344 Cronk, Gnr C T, 1531245, RA
    221901 8B Atkinson, Pte H, 4346231, E York
    221902 344 Bloom, Pte W, 4345403, E Yorks
    221903 344 Auton, Tpr F D, 7939182, RAC
    221904 344 Wilson, Gdsm F C, 2663080, C G
    221905 344 Hackett, Cpl P, 4805193, Linc
    221906 344 Dunkin, Pte H, 6019069, Essex
    221907 8B Cole, Tpr H C, 5251189, RAC
    221908 no camp listed Freeman, Gnr R, 1583588, RA

    221910 344 Jones, Pte R F, 5254069, Worc

    221912 344 Hyde, Cpl W R, 550172
    221913 no camp listed, Farmer, Gnr E, 1616420, RA
    221914 344 Scarth, Cfn J, 7588889, RE
    221915 BAB21 Talbot, Pte F, 7609911, RAOC
    221916 344 Furness, Gnr J, 1524227, RA
    221917 344 Day, Gnr C, 816024, RA
    221918 344 Pitt, Rfn R H, 6969264, R Bde
    221919 no camp listed Wilson, Pte F J, 14208401, Leic
    221920 344 Bracey, Gdsm L W, 2619848, G G
    221921 344 Perrett, Spr W C, 2193339, RE
    221922 344 Newnham, Spr C R, 2019703, RE
    221923 no camp listed Simpson, Dvr H C, T/87294, RASC
    221924 344 Barker, Dvr F E, T/129596 RASC
    221925 8B Dodd, Dvr Arthur, T/182469, RASC, 7th Armoured division. At the Monowitz British POW E 715 workcamp adjacent to Auchwitz in 1943-45 in ' Camp VI', one of the three British camps in the vicinity. Hut leader there was 'Jim Purdy'. Subject of the 1998 book Spectator in Hell, by Colin Rushton. Captured Libya, 6/42. previously at Camps PG 66, Capua and PG 54, Fara in Sabina.

    221927 344 Green, Tpr W E, 555650, RAC
    221928 no camp listed Wise, Gdsm L, 2621128, G G
    221929 344 Colley, Pte A J, 4749255, Gn How
    221930 344 Botley, Dvr A E, 6340845, RA
    221931 344 Elins, Rfn F C, 6923270, R Bde

    221933 344 Hill, Pte A T, 4037284, DLI
    221934 BAB20 Wilkins, Tpr J L, 7904743, RAC
    221935 344 Spencer, L/Cpl J, T/4747244, RASC
    221936 344 Jones, Pte W, 6021522, Essex
    221937 344 Williams, Gdsm J W 2657549, C G
    221938 no camp listed Tracey, Pte C H, 7626976, RAOC
    221939 344 Crowe, Tpr D H, 7890095, RAC

    221941 344 Kinsey, Gdsm J, 2660818, C G
    221942 344 Sharp, Pte L, 4346374, E York
    221943 344 Allen Cpl R A, 4393511, Gn How
    221944 344 Sturgess, L/Cpl A E, 5495643, Hamp
    221945 344 Watson, Gdsm H, 4801074, C G
    221946 344 Newbold, Gnr B B, 927113, RA
    221947 344 Everingham, Sgt R, 4390864, Gn How
    221948 344 Calvert, Pte H L, 4344780, E York
    221949 344 Poynton, Sgm T H, 2340051, R Sigs
    221950 344 Voakes, Pte A, 224015, RASC

    221952 BAB20 Russell, Pte G, 6019647, Essex
    221953 8B Webb, Gnr W C, 7343831 RA
    221954 344 Blair, Rfn T L, 7022239, R U Rif
    221955 344 Hunt, Spr H H, 1912155, RE
    221956 344 Dunsford, Cpl, C W, 4749401, Gn How
    221957 344 Leverton, Pte J, 14208509, Hamp
    221957 344 same no as above Nicholson, Spr D A J, 2121795, RE
    221958 344 Kirk, Spr W S, 2007980, RE
    221959 344 Stephens, Pte H T H, 7627225, RA
    221960 344 Smith, Pte C E, 5511763, Hamp

    221964 8B Tanner, Gnr W E, 1091389, RA
    221965 344 Taylor Pte A B, 4037140, DLI
    221966 344 Bulpit, Fus S L, 6478411, R Fus
    221967 344 Gordon, Pte A, S/189255, RASC

    221969 344 Mellor, Gdsm W, 5045298, C G
    221970 344 Maimone, Pte G A, T/65159, RASC

    221972 344 Locke, Tpr A J, 6142150, RAC
    221973 344 Plant, Pte W, 5257068, Worc
    221974 344 Ramsay, Spr W C, 2093946, RE
    221975 344 Ravenhall, Gnr F W, 1571784,

    221977 344 Short, Gnr J, 2052975, RA
    221978 344 Aldridge, Dvr J H, 205232, RASC
    221979 344 Codrai, Cfn W A, 7617002, REME
    221980 344 Bolton, Gnr G H, 945408, RA
    221981 344 Johnson, Gnr F S, 938039, RA

    221984 no camp listed Tilby, Gnr J, 1602762, RA
    221985 344 Gardner, Cfn A, 7613287, REME
    221986 344 Fowler, Gnr R, 824028 RA
    221987 344 Goodchild, Tpr H T, 7902498, RAC
    221988 no camp listed Sandham, Pte J T, 4862964, Leic
    221989 344 Fox, Gnr H T, 889949, RA
    221990 344 Hainsworth, Gnr H H, 6459279, RA
    221991 344 Morgan Spr A A, 2007934, RE
    221992 344 Herring, Gnr H, 957868, RA
    221994 344 Hill, Pte A T, 4037284, DLI
    221994 344 Jones (same POW number as above) L/Cpl S, 4037119, DLI
    221995 344 Elder, Bdr G, 892134, RA
    221996 344 Winslade Cfn R W, 549200 REME

    221998 4B Lamb, Pte F, T/89271, RASC
    221998 same number as above, no camp listed, Sandham, Pte J T, 4862964, Leic
    221999 344 Hills, Cfn S N, 7639556, REM
     
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  14. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Dear Steven, two pages of IVB related photos here, and although it was a massive camp you never know, there may be a face you recognise, maybe.

    Stalag IVB

    Good luck with your searching.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
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  15. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    Finally managed to get it through.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for posting the extract. Did you get a photo?

    My fathers mate (also CG) ended up at Reigersfeld near Auschwitz. I got his POW questionnaire from Kew. He complained of unnecessary POW deaths due to allied bombing as Camp Guards were reluctant to let prisoners stop working and go to the air raid shelters.

    Steve
     
  17. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    I did thought I'd posted that as well. See attached. What battalion?
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    My father and his mate were both in Number 2 Company 3rd CG and were captured at Antelat, Libya about dawn 23rd December 1941 when 3rd CG were in leading elements of Operation Crusader advance to Agadabia, Libya.

    Battalion had occupied Antelat on the night of 22nd December 1941 and sent out standing patrols to NSEW. The battalion withdrew to the east at dawn on sighting german forces approaching from the west.

    My father was in one of the standing patrols, commanded by a Lieutenant Warde Aldam, and was captured as the patrol returned to Antelat shortly after dawn as they had failed to receive notification of the Battalion withdrawal.

    They were both in the same Italian camps initially but his mate was sent to Germany July 1943 and ended up in Stalag 8B/344. My father went to Germany in September 1943 and ended up in a Stalag 17B work camp at Mistelbach north of Vienna

    Steve

    EDIT TO ADD

    Stalag 344 - Work Camp E711
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  19. Steven Dendy

    Steven Dendy Member

    My Grand was 3rd, not sure on the company. Captured Tobruk when the Axis forces retook it.

    I believe 3rd CG were stationed in the knightsbridge box on the night of the 21st.
     

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