St.Valery-en-Caux and Stalag IXc

Discussion in '1940' started by peacock1961, Sep 21, 2008.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  2. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Owen - Thanks for that info. I knew that Canadians came to the UK from the off, but not that any were sent to France in 1940.

    I have now received details from my friend of what happened when the soldier called Bob Ingram was shot whilst trying to escape and I quote

    "My father recalls he helped prepare Bob for the escape and gave him a compass and showed him where to escape from the upper storey of a store room. Him and dad were pals. Dad states that (sadly) quite a few in the camp knew (Including the guards) of the escape plot and a Czec recruit into the German army took it upon himself to 'capture' the escapees as they broke through the ceiling. Bob was the first to drop and was shot at close range without any offer of surrender as he was lowering himself. The other escapees were captured in the building.

    There was uproar in the camp and a genuine feeling of sorrow from the other German guards plus the local villagers - hence all the flowers. The Czec recruit was posted somewhere East immediately."

    With regards to the photos attached by Peacock1961, (wreath & grim faced soldiers standing around wreath) my friends dad has said that they are not related to this particular funeral.

    I attach a photo and Bob Ingram is the soldier seated. I have another group photo (including my friends dad) which is quite amusing, but need to reduce it in size first in order to post it.

    Having looked at CWGC and some Canadian sites, I still can't find any record of his death and therefore a grave location. Suggestions please on a postcard!!

    Robert
     

    Attached Files:

    von Poop likes this.
  3. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    I've found reference to the death of the soldier called Bob Ingram on another web site, which states that he was killed whilst attempting to escape from Stalag IXC on Saturday 6th November 1941.

    Despite looking at CWGC and a Canadian site, I can't find recorded a death for any person called Ingram for that period. Is it possible that a soldiers death may not even have been recorded at all?

    The only other explanation is that this was not the correct name. However, I have the eye witness testimony of a person who tried to help him escape and the same name on another website quoting same name, month and year.

    Any final suggestions before I give up on this one.

    Thanks - Robert
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I've found reference to the death of the soldier called Bob Ingram on another web site, which states that he was killed whilst attempting to escape from Stalag IXC on Saturday 6th November 1941.

    Despite looking at CWGC and a Canadian site, I can't find recorded a death for any person called Ingram for that period. Is it possible that a soldiers death may not even have been recorded at all?

    The only other explanation is that this was not the correct name. However, I have the eye witness testimony of a person who tried to help him escape and the same name on another website quoting same name, month and year.

    Any final suggestions before I give up on this one.

    Thanks - Robert


    Robert,
    Have you looked at this record?
    http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2201665

    The year may be out but, name is same, day and month tallies and Berlin is a possibility for removal of remains. There is another precedent I found by gooling - Essex Roll of Honour, I think - an airman who crashed near Muhlhausen camp and who is now buried in Berlin.

    D
     
  5. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    D - Thanks a lot for that info. It's entirely possible that he may have been a different nationality and the year different. I was starting to consider looking at it from all angles.

    Life was so dull and uninteresting for most POW that after 5 years of captivity, memories of most things must have become blurred. Even they wanted to forget their captivity after they came home.

    I will suggest that my friend talks to his dad again about his pal Bob Ingram, but don't hold out much hope that he will give us any more information as he is quite frail.

    Thanks again - Robert

    PS Were the Cameron Highlanders part of the 51st Highland Division captured in 1940?
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    D - Thanks a lot for that info. It's entirely possible that he may have been a different nationality and the year different. I was starting to consider looking at it from all angles.

    Life was so dull and uninteresting for most POW that after 5 years of captivity, memories of most things must have become blurred. Even they wanted to forget their captivity after they came home.

    I will suggest that my friend talks to his dad again about his pal Bob Ingram, but don't hold out much hope that he will give us any more information as he is quite frail.

    Thanks again - Robert

    PS Were the Cameron Highlanders part of the 51st Highland Division captured in 1940?

    Robert,
    I checked the Roll of Honour, neither birthplace nor residence mentions Canada.

    However, even allowing for passage of time which may account for inconsistences, [I have some experience of this], there is still a possibility that he emigrated at some point too...and came home again with an accent ...

    Happy hunting,
    Diane
     
  8. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    PS Were the Cameron Highlanders part of the 51st Highland Division captured in 1940?
    St Valery-en-Caux is twinned with Inverness, home of the Cameron Highlanders.
     
  9. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Thanks Diane - I think that's our man. Got a reply back from a webmaster of one of the sites where pics are found. He said 6 November 43 is the correct date.

    Apologies Owen, I meant Gordon Highlanders not Cameron. I believe 1st & 5th Battalions were in France 1940. Is that correct?

    Thanks again - Robert
     
  10. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    1st & 5th Gordons were part of 153 brigde. in 1940.
     
  11. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Many thanks 51Highland

    Can you recommend any books on the 51st Highland Division, particularly 1944-45

    Thanks - Robert
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I think that's our man. Got a reply back from a webmaster of one of the sites where pics are found. He said 6 November 43 is the correct date.


    Robert, glad that part is resolved.
    Diane
     
  13. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Picture of Robert Ingram's final resting place at Berlin War Cemetery, kindly taken by Smudger Jnr today.

    Many thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    I had a request today from my best friend, whose Father knew Robert Ingram who was killed whilst trying to escape.

    His Father volunteered for service on the outbreak of war in 1939, did 5 months training in Woolwich and joined the Buffs in Canterbury. They embarked for France in early 1940 and his Father was badly wounded and captured by the Germans in May 1940. He spent the remainder of the war in captivity in Stalag IXC until his liberation in 1945.

    My Friend's Father did not receive any medals after his release and I would like to know whether he was entitled to any, despite his incarceration for the majority of the war.

    Regards - Robert
     
  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm not sure about the entitlements of captured members of the BEF but no-one 'received' campaign medals after the Second World War. They had to be applied for and they were of course un-named. Ribbons would have been worn on battledress until demob but many felt that it was something of an insult that they had to apply. My Dad still hasn't and nothing would persuade him to.

    My Grandfather had his named M.B.E. (Mly) but never applied for the campaign medals which as ex-5 Div were a good collection. The censor probably won't let me print his comments but it included Buggers and Buggered ! ...and that was a man with a full set of Regimental Histories and a framed photo in Service Dress on the mantelpiece.
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I had a request today from my best friend, whose Father knew Robert Ingram who was killed whilst trying to escape.

    His Father volunteered for service on the outbreak of war in 1939, did 5 months training in Woolwich and joined the Buffs in Canterbury. They embarked for France in early 1940 and his Father was badly wounded and captured by the Germans in May 1940. He spent the remainder of the war in captivity in Stalag IXC until his liberation in 1945.

    My Friend's Father did not receive any medals after his release and I would like to know whether he was entitled to any, despite his incarceration for the majority of the war.

    Regards - Robert

    Hi Robert,
    Try this page here:
    Ministry of Defence | Defence For... | Veterans | Medals | Medal FAQs

    There is a link for an application form, and it also stipulates that medals for a decd serviceman must be applied for under these conditons:

    If the serviceman is deceased, the immediate next of kin is entitled to receive any medals. In the first instance, the immediate next of kin will be the spouse. If also deceased, it will be the eldest child. If there was no marriage or no children, it could be a sibling or other relation. If a different family member wishes to receive the medals, written and signed permission must be given by the immediate next of kin.

    Hope this helps.
    D
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ramacal -
    When Gen.Brooke was sent back to France after his escape from Dunkirk, some units of the 1st Canadian Division were sent there also.
    Cheers
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just read this trawling through old 1940 threads.....Great stuff and well done all.
     
  19. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Hello Gentlemen,

    I seem to be banging on, on every connetion to St Valery and Stalag IXC, with regard to my grandfather who served in 7RNF, was captured at St Valery and was imprisoned for the duration in Stalag IXC, as POW 19055 L/Sgt John 'Jack' Lawson. If anyone can haelp I'm sure you can.

    Thank you in advance, kind regards, John Lawson
     

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