Some Photographs - Crashed Aircraft etc.

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by von Poop, Apr 30, 2008.

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  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    'dbf' has asked me to post these photographs taken from her father's album to see if we can throw any light on them.
    To place them in context, they're likely 'captured' pictures taken by German troops of German troops.
    The thread below will hopefully throw some light on the people involved, these shots are most likely in Europe in 1944/45? :

    What are we looking at?

    1
    Untitled-3_edited-1.jpg

    2
    Untitled-4_edited-1.jpg

    3
    Untitled-5_edited-1.jpg

    4
    Untitled-16.jpg

    And on this next one, it may be obvious what we're looking at ;).

    Untitled-80_edited-1.jpg

    (Hope that's ok D?)

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    See After The Battle "Blizkrieg In The West" page 88.
    That Fiesler Storch is there, same 16 on tail-fin.
    Same shape hole too, under the 16.
    Plane used on Operation Niwi, May 1940.

    That number 16 is at Petite Rosiere near Nives.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2017
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Blimey, if it's a 'NIWI' or 'Hedderich' one that's one of the 'stranger' operations thats fascinated me in the past. So do we reckon the picture is from 1940? Surely the wreck wouldn't be left there for years? Or be in that condition.

    Might as well paste in this reply I gave to HO over on WW2F when these massed Storch landings came up, it's collated entirely from Pallud's Blitzkrieg in the West:

    Operation 'NIWI': an attempt to stop Belgium defensively destroying too much infrastructure and slowing the advance of plan Gelb's panzers, involved some hundred Fieslers carrying c.400 men in 2 lifts (with over an hour between landings if things went well), only 3 JU 52's were made available. The Commander was one Major Otto Forster and the troops came from the 'Gross Deutschland' carrying twice the usual issue of HMG's and AT rifles as they were expecting to meet elite and armoured Begian units.

    The landing sites were near Nives & Witri (Niwi) though the first lift went somewhat awry when a loose & very low flying plane, piloted by Forster & heading for one site lost it's way & picked up the bulk of the planes from the other drop, leaving one Oberstleutnant Garski to land with no radio and 9 troops. The first wave therefore mostly rather confusedly landed in one place, 93 planes in an area intended for 42.

    8 Storches were unable to take off again due to damage on landing and were set on fire. The commander at this site set off immediately to try and get his troops where they were supposed to be, grabbing any civilian transport that could be found. The second lift seems to have gone better and the newly 'motorised' group was able to link up and continue more as intended.
    The story is then one of basically skirmishing with Belgian units until the 1 Panzer Division rolled up.

    Around 30 Germans were killed on 'Niwi' including Luftwaffe personnel, 16 Feislers were lost and 2 of the 3 JU52's shot down while flying supplies over Belgian units. 46 Iron crosses were earnt but as the raid doesn't exactly 'glitter' like Eben Emael, only one Knights cross was awarded, to Eugen Garski on July 19th. For me, this would also help explain why it seems a poorly covered part of the war in historical terms, Goebbels and his propaganda gang would see little benefit in promoting this particular 'special forces' op so it presumably never got the 'bigging up' of other more dramatic incidents that still seems to influence perceptions today. I assume this is a picture of the same Garski, who went on to command a GD regiment and was killed on 30th September 1942:
    garski.jpg

    There was also a slightly smaller operation 'Hedderich' carried out at the same time (also in the Ardennes & presumably the one that caught HO's attention), 125 men were dropped in 5 groups using just 25 Storches (2 lifts) in an attempt to hold 5 significant crossroads on the French border. The op appears to have been quite successful at delaying Belgian reinforcements, one or two groups were bounced and forced to retreat but the others seem to have held their objectives, and even attracted crowds of curious civilians as they set up, somewhat unnerving for a first wave landing of 10 blokes I'd have thought.
    Losses on 'Luftlandekommando Hedderich' were 25-30 men killed and 5 storches.


    Stared at the picture and it really does look like the same aircraft doesn't it?

    So what are the other planes? I like Number 2, that looks early to me as well?

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Three more from dbf's Dad's pictures:

    5
    Untitled-129.jpg

    6
    Untitled-131.jpg

    & a very nice ZwillingsLaffette 36 mounting of a pair of MG34s. (Beautifully preserved example of one of these in the Bunker Museum at St. Ouens beach in Jersey.):

    7
    Untitled-132.jpg

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    No 3 photo looks like a Loire et Olivier 451 which was used by the French air force in 1940
     
  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    8.
    [​IMG]

    9.
    [​IMG]

    10.
    [​IMG]

    11.
    On reverse annotated "French Colonial POWs, 1940" [?]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    10 and 11 are particularly interesting. Colonial troops if I'm not mistaken. Was the French Army integrated in 1940?
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Ger,
    I meant to annotate No. 11. I can just manage to read the back "French Colonial" POWs, 1940. [In English]
    dbf
     
  10. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    last 2 photographs are most probably Belgium or France
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Diane,
    On photos 10 & 11 is it possible with a magnifying glass to pick out any numbers on their collars at all?

    I think the troops in No 9 are Belgians, different cut to their uniforms than the French.
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Owen,
    The originals are about 7.5 x 5 cm; even at a higher dpi/res, it shows nothing ... ?
    10.
    [​IMG]

    11.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    12.
    [​IMG]

    13.
    Untitled-46.jpg

    14.
    Untitled-72_edited-1.jpg

    15.
    Untitled-43.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    16.
    [​IMG]

    17.
    Untitled-5.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    18.
    [​IMG]

    19.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    20.
    [​IMG]

    21.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Good lord, Pics 18 & 19 appear to be the rather rare Belgian T-13,
    which places an immediate context on the pictures.

    20 & 21 are both Pz.35(t) (among other designations), a 'captured' Czech design,
    but one produced officially for the Wehrmacht .
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    18 & 19 are Belgium T-13.
    Dates photo to 1940.
    Belgium Armor
     
  19. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    AAAAGGGHHH I cant see the photos. Have to wait until I am on me machine at home!
     
  20. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Well 16 & 17 are all tank crew, with the Panzer Assault badge (though assault gun crew also wore a very similar uniform, I'll plump for Panzer as there's no StuG. picture).

    It's speculation but perhaps they've just received the honour if it's 1940.
    The crew for a 35(t) was 4 men so maybe the last is holding the camera.

    I liked the locker one too, the kind of thing that'd make an unusual illustration for a uniforms book.
    I don't reckon it'd be too big a leap to associate that hat & uniform with the chap below would it?
     

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