I'm looking into the life of a chap who in 1940, at the age of 40, managed to get commissioned into the RE as a 2nd Lieutenant. He'd served as a Sgt in WWI (regular infantry although he was Cavalry trained and may have taken part in the last Cavalry charge at Meggido when attached to the Australian Light Horse) and then as a 1st Lt (officer translator) with the British Military Mission to Siberia in 1919 - 20. So, obviously they had him for his experience (after WWI he worked as a mines engineer hence RE in WWII) and they specifically wanted him for a base job, in England, to free up younger men to go to the front line. Our chap had ideas of his own and most definitely wanted to be on the front line and in order to get there he became, by his own estimation, a right royal pain in the 'arris until they got sick of him and posted him away to the ME, whereupon he started making a nuisance of himself again, until he got to be where he wanted to be, right up front and as far up front as he could possibly get! He was KIA in 1945, at the age of 45, and he was right up front leading a recce when his scout car was hit by fire from an 88mm! Earned the MC in 1943 and should have had another one on the day he died but never got written up for it! During WWI he suffered a gun shot wound to the right leg; In 1943 he was blown up by a Grenade; in 1944 he 'copped 5 bullets', three rushing forward to get a man out and two coming back when he realized he wasn't going to make it. He was back at work a month later! When he was commissioned on July 16th, 1940 he... JOINED No.1 Mechanical Transport Depot (R.E.) at Aldershot. On August 17th he was ATTACHED to No.4 Training Battalion (R.E.) at Colchester, where he undertook a ‘Course of Instruction’ presumably in Field Engineering. On October 8th he was ATTACHED to 245 (Welsh) Field Company, at Ramsbottom, (presumably to complete his training?) and where he stayed until November 17th. After that there's nothing else until January 3rd, 1941, when his service records note that he 'Embarked R.C.D.N.M (no idea what the initials refer to but his own personal notes say he embarked on HMT Arundel Castle). His next service record entry is POSTED to CRE No.52, Middle East on March 23rd, 1941. So, my questions are as follows: 1.) Can I presume that the difference between 'attached to' and 'posted to' would, in this case, denote the difference between a training unit and an actual posting? 2.) Does 'Joined' mean something different to either attached or posted? 3.) Why would they send him to the MT Depot at Aldershot before sending him for 'proper' engineering training at No.4 TBRE at Colchester? Is this evidence of the army trying to get him directly into a base job? 4.) Does anyone have any idea what 245 Fd Coy were doing at Ramsbottom in August 1940? Were they operating in a training role for anything specific? 5.) Anyone have any idea what the initials R.C.D.N.M means? Thanks in Advance Pete
Those dates don't look right if he was on HMT Arundel Castle as it set off earlier than that: WS (Winston Specials) Convoys in WW2 - 1941 Sailings I keep mentally playing with RCDNM and keep coming up with Royal Chatham/Clyde Dockyard Naval something or other! Arundel Castle did leave from the Clyde: WS Convoys [Look up W.S. 5] But it was in Freetown on 26/1/41 - so I can't imagine it being back in Britain for 31/1/41. Edit: Do you have the original papers to post?
Well caught on the dates, bit of finger trouble on my part. It should have read January 3rd, 1941! Don't have a scan of the papers just yet but will post everything very soon, currently writing up my research!
Incidentally, I have a note from this chap indicating that he embarked with Arundel Castle on January 3rd, 1941 and after 61 days arrived in Suez (8.3.41). From there he went to Ismailia, Moascar Camp. I'm getting this from someone else who is transcribing it from a pencil written diary, haven't seen the diary myself yet, although scans of it is promised any day now.
1.) Can I presume that the difference between 'attached to' and 'posted to' would, in this case, denote the difference between a training unit and an actual posting? Not necessary attached to means joined another part of the Army or other services this could be for training or any other reason that they required men for. 2.) Does 'Joined' mean something different to either attached or posted? Joined is usually only used on initial enlistment. 3.) Why would they send him to the MT Depot at Aldershot before sending him for 'proper' engineering training at No.4 TBRE at Colchester? Is this evidence of the army trying to get him directly into a base job? Possible sent there for assessment to ascertain which training or role would suit him best. 4.) Does anyone have any idea what 245 Fd Coy were doing at Ramsbottom in August 1940? Were they operating in a training role for anything specific? Possibly reorganising the coy as it had just returned from France. 5.) Anyone have any idea what the initials R.C.D.N.M means? No idea. But if the D and M are not a D and M but a T and A then possible Royal Corps Transport. North Africa. WS 5B left Lough 11th Jan 1941. Arundel Castle arrived Suez 3rd Feb 1941. To explain date of embarkation 3rd to date of sailing. This convoy sailed in three sections, from the Bristol Channel (4 ships), Liverpool (6 ships), and from the Clyde (11 ships). The Bristol Channel and Liverpool sections, after their juncture, were oblige to anchor in Moelfre Bay from 8 to 11.1.41, prior to their final rendezvous with the Clyde section; they had therefore to enter Belfast Lough to complete with fresh water. Sailing from the Lough, and the junction with the Clyde ships, took place on 12.1.
Embarked RCDNM is just a draft code. It was on all paperwork and kit when soldiers embarked for sea. Lesley
RCDNM is just a movement identification. The Royal Corps Transport North Africa is idea is wrong....the RCT wasn't formed until the late 1960's if my regimental history is correct!! Lionboxer
Thanks for all the replies! Re the R.C.D.N.M. it is quite clear what the actual letters are, and they are abbreviated as per the dot following each Letter. At first I had assumed Royal Canadian Destroyer and spent some time looking for a ship with the letters NM. Then I saw an entry from his diary naming the Arundel Castle as the troop ship and realised and i was right off beam! Now I'm thinking it's something very pedestrian like "Regional Collection Depot, Naval Movment!", or something like that! From start to end the way I'm reading this is that he was posted to the MT depot as that's what they intended him to do for the war, oversee MT and supplies. It's only when he becomes a nuisance that they send him, some four weeks later, to a training establishment. The basic building block of training in the RE was the 'Course of Instruction' in field engineering which I think should have been about 6- 8 weeks, followed by four weeks with an actual Fd Coy to gain practical experience. After that your 'posted' to a proper unit. In 1939 - 1940 they had far too many new recruits and not enough instructors to train them all and it was during this period, especially post-Dunkirk, that the RE started to come under serious pressure. Firstly, they were tasked with defending the Medway and Lower Thames against invasion which cut into their manpower. They were getting air raids which was cutting into their training time (hence the move to Ripon).Then they had to setup, from scratch, a new training course in Bomb Disposal to deal with the presents from the Luftwaffe and on top of that there was a constant stream of new recruits, lots of volunteers I might add, who needed training up. So, by the stage our chap joins up a slot on a regular RE training course is a precious commodity so why waste it on someone who isn't going to be in the field. Better to send him off to where he'll do some immediate good and get on-the-job training there, hence the reason they shoved him off to the MT depot. He's recorded as say that he made such a big nuisance of himself that in the end they posted him to the ME just to get rid of him. He'd demand to see the OC, then the 2i/c, then the CO, then his CO and all the way up the line until they got heartily sick of him and moved him on. Once they agreed to post him overseas then they had to train him up, hence the attachment to the training depot.I'm now wondering if the Personnel Office in Glasgow has any records of this to-ing and fro-ing with our chap, records which they did not send on with his personnel file.
To follow on from Charlie Fortnum's post, might it be that RCDNM is as basic as, "River Clyde Dockyard, Naval Movmements" and refer to the office of the Embarkation Officer at the Clyde Dockyard. After all the Clyde was Britain's main entry point for Allied merchant shipping, military personnel and equipment, and for the assembly, despatch and control of ocean convoys.
Well that puts the kibosh on my earlier interpretation. I guess we have to assumed that the R, being common to both has a standard meaning. B Might be Bombay which could mean that the C in mine means Cairo? Of course there has to be something else in there to identify Egypt from India elsewise we'd get confused by a draft destined for Calcutta! Beyond that my head begins to hurt!
It's just a random Army draft code. Is it really so important?, after all you know which ship the chap sailed on Lesley
No, it's not that important, mere curiosity made me ask the initial question, the last of 5, but it's the question everyone seemed to want to discuss! My primary question was whether my chap was sent to an MT Depot as a permanent base job where he would get on the job training rather than sent immediately to a Training Brigade to do the Course of Instruction in field Engineering. Something I mused on more specifically in a follow up post. Unfortunately, everyone (including you) seems to want to talk about this!
He was commissioned on July 16th, 1940. JOINED No.1 Mechanical Transport Depot (R.E.) at Aldershot. On August 17th he was ATTACHED to No.4 Training Battalion (R.E.) at Colchester, where he undertook a ‘Course of Instruction’ presumably in Field Engineering. Lets say the course of instruction they wanted him to take, lasted 6 weeks. and the previous course had started 4th July 1940. So by the time he was commissioned the course would be two weeks through. That means a new course would not start until say 18th Aug. So he had to be usefully employed elsewhere until the course started.
I take your point, that his commissioning into the Army may not have neatly coincided with the start of a basic field engineering course but as an officer I would have assumed they'd tell him to remain at home until such time as they had a course ready for him? Of course it's possible that they sent him to the MT Depot for basic soldiering training (although that's not mentioned on the list of course attended on his B199A form). My problem in assuming that he was undergoing training in these first four weeks is that he's at an MT Depot, I can't see that being a training centre for anything other than MT duties, which rather implies that that's where they were hoping to make use of him (i.e. a base job in England) for the duration of the war. Too old to fight but he could organise trucks and supplies. Lots of older officers, and NCO's, came back to do just that at the beginning of the war, thus freeing up the younger men to fight! At any rate I've emailed the Historical Disclosures dept at the Army Personnel Centre to ask if they're holding any additional paperwork in his file which covers his 'making a nuisance' of himself! In the meantime I need to get back to writing up, I've allowed this small point to hold me up for too long. If/when I get more concrete evidence of what was going on over these few months then I'll go back and revise the point of his dogged determination to get posted to the front line!.
Just as a follow up, I came across a personal memoir on the old BBC WWII database of a chap who joined up at almost the same time as my chap, a month earlier I think. He was an OR but he too,on enlistment, joined No.1 Mechanical Transport Depot (R.E.) at Aldershot, and he does say that he did his basic square bashing and MT specialist training there before being posted to an MT Unit a a driver. So, it may well be that I was right and, that when they initially posted my chap to No.1 MTRE Depot, that they had intended him to get trained up for, and remain in, an MT Unit in England.
