side cap of lancashire fusiliers

Hi. Seems that nearly everything i put on the forum is 2/5 LF related, but i have a question to ask that has been puzzling me for a while now. The colour of this battalion's side-cap.

Now, what everyone has said to me who knows more about the Bn. than i do, is that the cap was a shade of red. But what my grandad tells me is that his battalion was the only infantry battalion he knew that wore a dark shade of blue. I have asked him if his memory may be playing tricks on him, but he swears blind it was blue.

I have tried looking on the web to find some official source of information that says what the colour is, but with little success.

So what im asking really is
A) does anyone know the colour?
B) how do you know for definite (i.e where did you find this out)?
C) could it be to do with the Company he was is, or to do with him being a bren gunner, etc?

the only pictures i can find of the 2nd/5th Battalion in barrack dress (not wearing helmets) are from the LF website.
2/5LFreformed1939

 

Red and yellow. Speak to the museum.

That of the East Lancs was blue with white. Most others used a base colour of blue. South Lancs was all blue, ir I remember correctly. That of the LFs was most certainly red with yellow.

This refers only to regimental coloured FS caps. Issue ones were drab.

Here's a Russian group portraying them:
Re-enactment group Moscow

 

Better than the PM I sent!

 

Better than the PM I sent!


View attachment 83199

That's the one!

 

Adding to this, I have done a good deal of research into the East Lancs Coloured FS cap and have come to the conclusion that there was no set pattern. Would you like white piping? Go for it. However, I do know that the Lancashire Fusiliers did have a very set pattern. As Wills has kindly posted, it's the red and yellow example (and although that one is a repro, it's right).

 

(1941) Regimental Badges & Service Caps

 

Bugger. It was the Loyals' CFS that was all blue :redface:

 

Hi. Seems that nearly everything i put on the forum is 2/5 LF related, but i have a question to ask that has been puzzling me for a while now. The colour of this battalion's side-cap.

Now, what everyone has said to me who knows more about the Bn. than i do, is that the cap was a shade of red. But what my grandad tells me is that his battalion was the only infantry battalion he knew that wore a dark shade of blue. I have asked him if his memory may be playing tricks on him, but he swears blind it was blue.

I have tried looking on the web to find some official source of information that says what the colour is, but with little success.

So what im asking really is
A) does anyone know the colour?
B) how do you know for definite (i.e where did you find this out)?
C) could it be to do with the Company he was is, or to do with him being a bren gunner, etc?

the only pictures i can find of the 2nd/5th Battalion in barrack dress (not wearing helmets) are from the LF website.
2/5LFreformed1939

There maybe info in the war diaries that I copied for you last year that are waiting for payment

 

1900 pattern will see if I can find when it changed, changes are done by regimental committees of serving and retired regimental officers and warrant officers. Through a chain where the yea or nay is given before a war office committee submit to the sovereign for approval. It would appear your grandfather was right!

 

i spoke to my grandad today (or rather yesterday). i asked him if it was a battle dress cap or a formal dress one. he said formal. so i told him that all the sources that i've seen say that the cap was red. he was very firm in saying it was a royal blue colour. his memory has started to fade in his old age (he's 87 this year), but he is so adamant that it was blue, i have to believe him. and as i just came home today and saw what Wills posted about the cap possibly being put before a committee has just confirmed my thoughts.

 

i have also found this pic from the LF website. a cap from the 10th battalion.

 

Lancashire Fusiliers:

Field Service Cap (or "Forage Cap for Active Service & Peace Manoeuvres") - Officers. In 1883 Dress Regulations introduced; a Blue cloth folding cap, 4 1/2 inches high, with blue side flaps, 4 inches deep, to turn down when required. Gold French braid welts on the cap and flaps, and at front and back seams. A grenade embroidered in gold in front Other Ranks in Yellow cloth piping. Warrant Officers same as Officers.



Second Pattern of 1894 (following Army Order No. 167 of November that year). The side flap was reduced in depth to 3 1/2 inches thus giving a more elegant silhouette.


FS or Forage caps are of regimental pattern -matters not how many battalions the pattern is universal throughout the regiment as this is a Royal Warrant. Units cannot just decide what they will wear - they can make submissions.


Our first 'Staff' instructor said - 'take away paper and pencil from the army and it would run around in even bigger confused circles without the ability to write new regulations'. Here be proof:


Regulations for the Clothing of the Army - UK - 1936

 

Different Battalions may have had different colours but the official coloured FS cap for the LF is PRIMROSE and red.

As Fruitcake says, contact the regimental museum as they'll likely know.

 

Which regiments had battalions wearing different pattern FS caps? Interested to know. The official pattern is yellow/gold over blue from 1893 until a date yet to be discovered when the pattern changed to scarlet over yellow/primrose. I have indicators (not proof) that the change may have occured in 1937 - an AGI order will be on file somewhere!
In 1937, troops were authorized (again)the wear of Coloured Field Service Caps for walking out purposes. Were cut in the same pattern as the issued Field Service Cap. The caps were made in coloured wool fabric, with each regiment having different colours or piping on them.


My post above 12 - Is extracted from the official regulations.


The term Field Service cap is used on occasion in error as some regiments wore the Torin Cap. Today the Duke of Lancaster's regiment and the Royal Dragoons wear the Torin pattern cap. As do some Yeomanry and Territorial units.

 

The Essex Regiment had different colours/patterns for some of their battalions in WW2. Whether this was officially sanctioned or not I don't know.

 

Thanks it certainly would not have been official.

So far all I have found is the unofficial pattern, The Essex Regt (as did others from 1894 pattern FS cap was all blue.) Later changed to Pompidou (purple) blue over purple.

 

I have now contacted the museum as combover has suggested, so i'll wait and see if they can shed some light on this.

 

The fusilier museum has gotten back to me.

"Dear Daniel,
Many thanks for your email. Your granddad is absolutely correct – side hats in his day were royal blue in colour. Following the end of the Second World War side hats were in use only by officers and these in our case were of red and primrose, the regimental colours of the Lancashire Fusiliers.
Best wishes,
Philip Mather
Research Officer"

 

Great stuff-your grandad got it correct. Seems he knew what he was talking about after all!

Lesley

 

Indeed, Lesley.