Hi All.....Is this the right place to post my dads service records for help in making sense of them. Regards Vic
Hi All.....I am posting my fathers records in the hope of making connections between what my father told us ...which wasn't much.....and his service records.......Some background.... We know for example that he enlisted in February 1940 and was with the RA. He said that initially he was posted as an anti aircraft gunner in the port of Southampton......somehow he was aboard the Mohamed Ali el-Kabir when it was torpedoed August 7th 1940......his recollections and the photos and letters we have place him in Durban, South Africa, Egypt, India and Burma.......He was also at one time a DR .....and a Captains escort...we know he wound up with the 14th Army in Burma...17th Indian Div....... I know I have another document.....I will post it shortly...You will have to click on the file to open it .... thanks for any insight Vic
Hi Vic. It looks as if he was with the 50th Anti tank training regiment Royal Artillery at Aldershot (Hampshire). Training and declared on active service. Looks to be 15/2 /1940. Then on 15/3/40 he was posted to 30th Light anti-aircraft Regiment, still at Aldershot. Date a bit smudged, but think its 7/40 when he was posted to Soton. (Southampton). So yes, it is correct that that was the first place outside of the training camp, he was posted to. Will go through the rest of the records when time available.
A bit more. 9/8/40 to 21/8/40 attached to Movement control Greenock (West of Glasgow, Scotland ). An important area, Ship building, docks, and sugar refinery. 11/8/40 to 17/8/ 40. Leave (Time Off, Vacation). I am only guessing this bit, 9th and 10th he was locating sites to set up guns. <somehow he was aboard the Mohamed Ali el-Kabir when it was torpedoed August 7th 1940.> Or was he helping the survivors? <H.M.S. Griffin rescued 766 survivors, including 62 wounded. They were 549 troops, 154 Merchant Navy crew, 62 Royal Navy personnel and one DEMS gunner. Some men were in the water for up to seven hours before they were found, and a number died of hypothermia after being rescued. She continued to search the area for survivors until the next morning. She then took the survivors to Greenock, where she arrived on 9 August.> 18th to 29th Guns, equipment and troops arrive so 11 days setting up. 29/8/40 attached to 71st Heavy Anti- aircraft Battery. 27/9/40 CTBA (Ceased to be Attached to ) 71st Heavy Anti- aircraft Battery. 1/10/40 not sure if it’s O/TT or B/TT operational or Battery Tactical Training. Movement Control Newport (Special duties). No idea what the special duties were or whether Newport refers to Newport isle of wight or Newport Wales (various army camps in that area also docks). gtd W.P.P 15/8/40. Could be something to do with pay. Granted War ? Pay. 4/2/41 CTBA M/C ceased to be attached to movement control and attached to 24th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment Royal artillery. 6/2/41 to 12/2/41, 6 days leave with free travel warrant (ticket/pass). Being Married on the 10th at St Mary and St Joseph’s chapel Poplar East London. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/St+Mary+&+St+Joseph+Rc+Church/@51.5120709,-0.0227004,437m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x487602b5af8e7b87:0x75ced092213a464b!8m2!3d51.5120375!4d-0.0205224?hl=en-GB 13/2/41 Attached to 88th Light Anti-Aircraft Battery Royal artillery. 9/4/41 Attended 5th A.A. ****** no 22 P.T. maybe Bagshot about 8mls from Aldershot. Not sure what this is at the moment, and can only make out this 6/4/41 to 25/4/41 in the next three lines. 5/12/41 embarked for overseas service Denbigh (Nth Wales) bit unusual as this is not a port, I suspect it was Army camp that they were at, before embarking at possibly Liverpool. 30/1/42 Disembarked Bombay. As disembarkation is not always on the same day as the ships arrive he could have arrived on any one of these. As embarkation port is not 100% known will have to check where and when each ship left port. Mon Jan 26, 1942 ATHLONE CASTLE CM.25B (Convoy number). .. DURBAN CASTLE CM.25B .. REINA DEL PACIFICO CM.25B .. STRATHALLAN CM.25B Tue Jan 27, 1942 BELRAY Independent .. VARELA Independent Wed Jan 28, 1942 BAHARISTAN Independent .. CITY OF LONDON Independent .. ANDES WS.14B (convoy number) .. DILWARA WS.14B .. EMPIRE CONDOR WS.14B .. ESPERANCE BAY WS.14B Thu Jan 29, 1942 BAMORA Independent .. CORFU WS.14B Fri Jan 30, 1942 EASTERN PRINCE Independent 20/9/42 appointed U/L Appointed U/L/Bdr W.E.F. 20/9/42. Which means he went up a rank from Gunner to unpaid Lance Bombardier with effect from 20/9/42. Granted pay after 21 days, W.R. E. F. With rate (of pay) effective from 20/9/42. Which basically means that he has proved that he is worth the rank of paid Lance Bombardier. 26/11/42 Posted to 82nd Anti-Aircraft/Anti-Tank Regiment R. A.
Hi ....RCG .....Amazing.....you have told me more in 24 hrs than I was able to decipher in weeks.... Dad was adamant that he was aboard the Mohamed Ali el-Kabir...and said that the time off was survivors leave ? ....He even bemoaned the point that there were only a few Lewis guns and 1 x 4'' gun as defense.....not that he got to use them.......I have attached a copy of a postcard that mum received, which would seem to support his assertion that he was on board.......I will look for more. Keep it coming its great..........Thanks. Regards Vic.
Hi .....RCG...I found the post card again...it was stamped Greenock..2;15,PM....9th August, 1940. Also found this....I'm not sure what I am looking at...you may know
HI It looks like a pass, to show he was on that ship and was allowed to go ashore, presumably to show MP's or police that he had not nicked off or deserted? regards Robert
Thanks Robert....I have so many pieces of paper that dad saved.......some make sense others not so much.......A question though.....if dad was in the RA what is he doing as a crew member on a ship ???.......were RA gunners ever attached to merchant ships as DEMS gunners ??..... Keep that info coming lads ......one of these days it will all make sense. Thanks again Robert....Regards Vic.
Vic, the problem with army records is not what’s in them, but what has been left out. We know that Bill was in Southampton July 1940, and then in Greenock 9th August. Postcard confirms this, we also know that something had happened to the ship and Doll also knew that Bill was going to be on a ship. (otherwise I don’t think that he would have sent a postcard so prompt to confirm he was safe). Now the history of the Mohamed Ali el-Kabir. <In 1940 Mohamed Ali El-Kebir again left the Mediterranean for Britain. En route she joined Convoy HG 36 at Gibraltar, which left on 28 June and reached Liverpool on 8 July. At the beginning of August 1940 she was in Avonmouth, where she loaded mail and government stores and embarked 697 troops bound for the Mediterranean. There were six officers and 243 men of the 706th Construction Company, Royal Engineers, six officers and 289 men of the 15th Company, Royal Pioneer Corps, two officers and 44 ratings of the Royal Navy, 20 Royal Marines, and 97 officers and men of the Royal Artillery and the Intelligence Corps. . The ship left Avonmouth on 5 August, escorted by the G-class destroyer HMS Griffin. At 2140 hrs on 7th August the convoy was in the Western Approaches about 230 nautical miles (430 km) west of Bloody Foreland in Ireland, making a zigzag course at 15 knots (28 km/h) when U-38 fired two stern-launched torpedoes at her. One hit Mohamed Ali El-Kebir's starboard quarter, and she started to settle by the stern. Griffin attacked and chased away the submarine and then went to rescue survivors. My theory is that Bill embarked from Avonmouth (Nr Bristol) on the Mohamad (But why was this not marked on his records?) The only reason I can think of is that the Mohamad was not going to the Mediterranean but was on a secret mission to some where else. Onboard you had basically a crew of builders and men to defend a building site, and primary defence against air attack. As Germany had taken control of Norway in April 40, were they actually on the way to perhaps, Shetland, Faroes isles or even Greenland to build Airfields. The position of where the Mohamad was sunk just seems a little too far north to be heading for the Med after leaving Avonmouth. Re: Crew member pass. This helps to explain the special duties Bill was doing at Newport docks (or not as it turns out.) from 1/10/40, O/TT Movement Control Newport (Special duties) to 4/2/41 CTBA M/C 24th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment R. A. There’s not much on SS Clan Cameron built 1937, 7,234 tons 1959 scrapped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron-class_steamship more on the previous one sunk in 1917. I would say that Bill was either operating or instructing others on the light AA guns, on SS Clan Cameron. As the pass is stamped 28th to 31st Oct 1940 Capetown Bill must have been in Capetown. Convoy WS 3C This convoy commenced at Capetown on 1.11.40 being made up of WOOLWICH, delayed from WS 3A SLOW, and the freighter CLAN CAMERON with the cruiser COLOMBO as escort. On 5.11 the ships made a rendezvous with convoy CM 5 and continued northward under the WS designation, being joined on 10.11 by KHEDIVE ISMAIL, late of WS 3, which was brought out from Mombasa by the armed merchant cruiser CARTHAGE which also joined the convoy as an escort. Later that day WOOLWICH, suffering from engine defects, detached from WS 3 with the CM 5 ships and proceeded to Mombasa, leaving CLAN CAMERON and KHEDIVE ISMAIL to continue to Aden where they joined the Red Sea convoy BN 8 1/2 for passage to Suez, arriving there on 23.11.40. http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys03-1940.htm Her later convoy. WS 14. Sailing from the Bristol Channel, Liverpool and the Clyde, the convoy assembled off Oversay on 9.12.41 as follows: http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys04-1941B.htm Will let you have the pleasure of finding out when Bill sailed out to capetown and getting back home from the Suez.
I am now totally impressed........in part of dads records I noticed an entry that says " is capable of training on his own " so maybe we are on the right course....I have some difficulty locating all of the records I need as I am in Canada so it all has to be done via internet......I am posting something that you may find of interest.......a more personal touch...but also confirms South Africa. keep it coming lol Regards Vic.
Yes that’s a very interesting letter it also narrows the list of ships that Bill could have sailed to Bombay in, Empire Condor, Esperance Bay or Andes. All started in Convoy WS14. Sailing from the Bristol Channel, Liverpool and the Clyde, the convoy assembled off Oversay on 9.12.41 21.12. 41 The convoy put into Freetown, leaving on the 25th. 5.12.41 The convoy arrived at Capetown , leaving on the 9.1.42 Arrived Durban 8.1.42. Where it was reorganized into 3 parts, one going to Aden, one to Basra and the other one, WS 14B leaving Durban 13.1.42, arriving Bombay on 28.1.42. The mention of Berea in the letter reminded me of, The lady in White who lived there, whom I would imagine Bill saw or heard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perla_Siedle_Gibson
RGC....... you are just a mine of interesting info ........again much appreciated......she sounds like quite the girl.......I think the hardships brought out the best in most folks.....any comment on the possibilities explored above ?? Thanks Vic.
