Selling Arnhem Personal Artefacts And Ephemera on eBay – Your Opinion

Discussion in 'The Lounge Bar' started by Tom Wallace, Apr 10, 2014.

  1. Tom Wallace

    Tom Wallace Junior Member

    Lately I’ve noticed personal photographs, private letters, medals and ephemera for sale on eBay. Even veterans' autographs. The ones I refer to all come from Arnhem veterans, long since dead, but they could be from any veteran and from any conflict. Regardless of whether or not the seller is related to the veteran the items belonged to, it saddens me to think that whatever the buyer does with them [assuming he’s not going to split the items up and sell them on for a profit], they’ll just end up on a shelf, in a drawer or on display in their home and they’ll never be seen by anyone else that has an interest in them.

    Personally, I don’t understand why anyone would want to buy and collect such things. It makes sense for them to be given to or be on permanent loan to museums, to be shared with the world. Recorded, collated and documented online. I’ve seen such things in the IWM. I’m sure the readers on ‘WW2 Talk’ own books, documents or memorabilia to further their knowledge and understanding of the subjects they’re passionate about, but collecting formerly private and personal effects is just odd.

    There must be hundreds of thousands of photographs, letters or diaries, privately owned and locked away by collectors. Just think how handy or useful it would be for people with the same interests if that knowledge was shared. It would probably clear up many mysteries and spawn a new generation of books.


    Tom
     
  2. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tom

    Not Arnhem based, but more to do with what to do with WW2 memorabilia.

    In my own case there was a touch of self interest coupled with a desire to genuinely share my ww2 experience.
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/gallery/album/42-rons-actual-army-album/


    I have five grandchildren....... How would I decide which one to leave my Album and memoirs to ?

    In the end i did what I considered was the right decision and donated my memorabilia to the Imperial War Museum in London

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030023786

    Ron
     
    brithm likes this.
  3. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Hi Tom,
    As a collector of ephemera - and having recently bought an Arnhem group on Ebay (possibly one of the groups you refer to) I'm probably the kind of person your question is directed to. As collector I enjoy having its like these, researching them, trying to build as much of a picture of the person who originally owned them as I can - I also take every opportunity I can to share images/cans of the bits I have to help others with there research (including vi this forum and others) and also have several items on display in a museum.

    You suggest these bits should be donated to museums - most museums have large numbers of items stored away that will never be seen - I recently visited the Regimental museum where I have some bits on display with more items in case they were interested but the curator told me that nice as they bits are they were not things they could display - unless something is really special it will go into storage at many museums - so while in theory its a nice thought to donate to a museum in practice it benefits no one in many cases - most museums don't give easy access to their stored collections - (physically or online). Also many of the displays you see in museum are loaned by collectors and are only there for you to see because they have gone to effort and expense to save them when they would otherwise have been binned.

    One Arnhem veteran I knew donated several items to a museum and I know he was quite upset to hear none of his items was on display and he expressed his regret that he couldn't have given them to me as he knew I would appreciate them more.

    In the end these items are private property and can be bought and sold (hopefully with respect) as the person sees fit.

    Not sure if I have given any kind of insight - I am obviously biased in favour of collectors.

    Cheers

    Alistair
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tom W

    This has more to do with the current lack of respect for all things which is so popular to-day - not having a diary to leave to anyone - my memories can be found underneath my signature on the BBC war series - this has been expanded for the benefit of my
    grandchildren and whether they ever want to read it is up to them entirely…

    Cheers
     
    brithm likes this.
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi TomW,
    This is my 'national' museum's offering for WW2. I can only imagine what is 'locked away' in storage.

    [​IMG]

    As Alistair says most museums don't have enough display space, there aren't enough specialist museums, and those which exist are under-funded as it stands, never mind adding to the volume that already requires some modicum of conservation.

    There is also none of that immediacy of connection when looking at something from the other side of a glass pane, and a lot of collectors do share info and painstaking research with interested parties, like Alistair and his wonderful AB40s. Others develop their collections into great teaching resources http://www.waryearsremembered.co.uk/home/index.html

    Then one has to consider all the other stuff 'not accessible' - that which is still in the possession of veterans or their families, in tins, drawers and attics which won't be seeing the light of day any time soon. Add to that the volume of things which have found their way to landfills over the years, mainly because it had no appreciable/appreciated value at the time.

    I think we can be a bit too precious about what's on the market. So long as things stay together as you say, in context and with provenance which most collectors prefer, I don't see a problem. (In the main it's dealers / middle men who attempt to maximise profit by splitting and many collectors spend a lot of time and effort reuniting eg medal groups).

    When all is said and done though, a good deal of items in collections 'move on' eventually and then someone else will get to appreciate them too. :)
     
    AB64 likes this.
  6. hutchie

    hutchie Dont tell him Pike!!

    i would like to say that i believe alot of it is down to the family simply not knowing what is in the house or it might be too painful for them to keep, my parents go to auctions and they deal with house clearances of the desceased and ww2 stuff does go through it (altho they know if its worth money and take it out)

    i did see on ebay a few months back a small pocket diary from a member of the home gaurd which he had marked down all his courses & events in his time in the home gaurd and the person who inherited it put it straight onto ebay which i personally feel is wrong
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Not the same level you are talking about, but I was lucky to have rescued only my father's spurs, the rest of his army memorabilia (I remember his cap, his gunnery manuals and two 3.7" AA shells) was simply binned when he died.
     
  9. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Things are improving with larger museums, the IWM for instance, who are trying to embrace the internet age. But, in general I find giving to museums can be like sending your family artefacts in to a black hole, never to see the light of day again.

    I made contact with a family about 4 years ago, it was an important contact for me as it related directly to my own grand father's story in Burma. I had a very fruitful correspondence with the family, who then assured me that I could read all the soldier's diaries, look at his photographs from WW2 and view his medals. They had placed them with a museum, which shall remain nameless, when I arranged a visit, the museum told me that they had no record of such a donation!!!
     
    dbf likes this.
  10. zahonado

    zahonado Well-Known Member

    It's a difficult one...I rescued as much family history stuff as I could and have used much of it in books as a more available record for the family.THere are still hundreds of letters which really dont have much of interest except for an obsession about how long mail takes! I have written up all the love letters...so where should the originals go? I was interested to find the medals but what to do with them in the longer term...if family members show no interest? In a way it would be good to pass them on to people who are researching or interested in finding out more. As I get older there is less and less I want to keep and it all just feels like too many decisions need taking. Of course nowadays there will be very little written about our own lives.....
     
    dbf likes this.
  11. ChrisR

    ChrisR Senior Member

    I'm a collector myself (WW2 Bomb Disposal). A few random observations -
    With the internet more information held by private collectors is being made available globally through websites such as this - for free!
    Museums on the other hand need paying visitors to sustain their collections, including financing everything from building maintenance to loo rolls in the gents, paying for staff, health and safety stuff, etc (I'm not including nationally funded museums, although they too are under pressure regarding budgets). With that in mind Museums are unlikely to make unlimited access to their collections for free on the web - they need the visitors money - hence visitors being directed through the gift shops. For simple geographic reasons, access to collections are going to be restricted to those local or willing to travel. As stated items in storage are not always apparent to researchers. In addition the cataloguing description of these behind the scenes items may not always provide enough information to be found a researcher.
    Not all veterans had family. It might be that house clearance people will be the ones who define what is worth saving. Not everyone has a knowledge or interest in WW2. However, most people have an interest in money! Anything of historical value also has a monetary value whether it be a personal diary or a VC. I know of items put on ebay that the seller thinks will only make a few quid, only to see the price rocket. The seller might have originally considered throwing the item away but with all the TV programmes such as Bargain Hunt, Cash in the Attic, etc, people now think twice. As a result the items, of which the significance maybe lost to the seller, are put on the market and thereby saved by collectors.
    If someone pays a lot for something on ebay it stands to reason that they are going to look after it.
    Collectors tend to be a bit obsessive and therefore research their subject deeply. Personally, I like to write about my research, sharing the knowledge and I also occasionally exhibit my collection to the public at 1940's events.
    I particularly like to collect items that are of a personal nature - especially photographs, in the hope that they have information on the back - names, places, dates. Also artefacts - I don't have a George Medal awarded to anyone for Bomb Disposal, but I do have the dog tags a man was wearing while working on a bomb for which he was awarded the medal. That small personal item has a physical link to a specific event, maybe more so than the medal awarded afterwards. Its that link that makes collecting enjoyable to me - being able to hold something in your hand that was actually there and being able to expand on the story. The seller of the disc didn't know that owner was decorated for their bravery.To them it was just an old identity disc of which there were thousands. - I just happened to recognise the name. This item could so easily have been put in the bin.
    In summary, there is a place for both private collectors and museums, and having all the eggs in one basket in my opinion is not necessarily a good thing. God forbid if a major museum ever had a fire.
     
    von Poop, dbf and AB64 like this.
  12. stamp

    stamp Member

    Someone pointed out this link to me, no prove or no suggestion that it came from the museum, for all I know he was also a collector but doesn't look good for the public or those who want to donate something to a museum



    click for more images


    [​IMG]

    A nicely used and removed from uniform padded so called 'slag exemplaar' (battle field 'relic' i.e left behind item) Army Flying Badge aka 'Glider Pilot wing'

    This is a perfect example of a padded and removed from uniform so called 'slag exemplaar' (battle field 'relic' i.e left behind item) Army Flying Badge better know as the 'Glider Pilot wing'. On 11 April 1942 Army Council Instructions 768 approved an Army Flying Badge to be worn by Air Observation Post and Glider Pilot Regiment pilots. It was to be 'a pair of pale blue wings with the Royal Crest superimposed in the centre, the whole upon a black background' or as it was less formally known, the 'Lion with Blue Wings'.The wing was worn above the left breast pocket of the Denison smock, Battle Dress and Service Dress and came in various shapes, sizes and layouts This nicely padded wing comes from the former collection of B.de Reus, former Museum Curator of the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek. A nice wing with some interesting history.
    Code: 50524Price:



    [​IMG]
     
  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Not sure why.
    Curators can legitimately collect too. Assuming/implying something's nicked from the museum's stuff is quite a leap.

    Re. the question as a whole - people can sell stuff, and people can buy it, whether for collections, business, whatever.
    If legally obtained, nothing to do with me.
    Lots of things I don't understand why people collect (someone I know has the world's largest Mr Men collection), but never would I wish to proscribe people from doing something just because I'm not into it.
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    A suggestion of provenance by association... in other words the seller can't link it to an individual but can claim that it belonged to a private collector who would know his stuff. I wouldn't read it as anything else.

    (We are all magpies to some degree, all have stuff other people wouldn't dream of keeping. There have been threads along similar topics - photos, books, etc, about lack of storage/display space and about what might happen to belongings after we are dead. I hope others can eventually enjoy some of the litter of life I've accumulated, and if they want to make a bit of money from it, good luck to them. And despite regretting the disappearance of objects known to have been in the family, if some of mine is dumped, well it clears a small space for something else. I've collected enamel pin badges for years, no theme, nothing old, no display, just terribly obsessive compulsive and in a box it grows - I guess that's really wending its way slowly towards a skip and not some museum or even a private collection. )
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  15. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    I often wonder what is going to happen to all the pictures, service records and information I have researched on my father, as I have nobody to leave it all to.

    When I spoke to my Uncle about it just the other day he said it's been your hobby and given you pleasure collecting this information these last few years-that's what it is all about, so why worry about what will happen when you are not around. Never really thought about it that way before.

    Lesley
     
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  16. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Lesley,

    Those are wise words from your Uncle. We all start our research pathways for various different reasons, triggered by one thing or another. Chindit 1 families often say to me that they wish they had began their search earlier, when the relevant people were still alive, this is common to us all of course, but we start when we start, and for our own personal reasons, and there is no point worrying about what might have been.

    We are doing a worthwhile job through our research and it will be an archive of information for others to use in the future.

    Now, I'm off to brain-wash my eldest daughter about the need to continue the Longcloth website after I've joined those Chindit Columns in the sky, or more realistically been told off by my Nan for starting it all in the first place. :)
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Anyone with similar concerns should put as much up on the internet as they are comfortable with: on forums such as this, websites, image hosting sites, etc ...and there's always ww2Talk's a custom made sub forum - People of WW2.

    Our veterans set a fine example...
    Tom posted about his experiences here and on BBC People's War.
    Ron also has info on both places, donated his album to IWM and has employed various 'belts and braces' on other sites.
    Joe places stuff here and elsewhere on internet to help those researching his former regiment.
    Gerry has his excellent website too.
    Etc

    No matter where the physical items may end up, the info will remain 'out there', somehow, in some format.
     
  18. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

  19. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I can also reccomend the use of Wayback, as mentioned above.

    Your only requirement is the URL of the website you want to save ....... It's as simple as that !

    Ron
     
  20. DPas

    DPas Member

    I have no desire to build a "collection" myself, but I have ended up doing so simply to get information. Once I have documented everything I will not feel the need to own it anymore. I solely do it to build up Grandad's story and help others researching their own family members.

    I do not criticise those that collect, but I did come across a sad situation a few weeks ago. There were some pictures up for auction on eBay and the son of the veteran pictured, came across these. He was outbid. In other words they are in someone's collection (possibly never to be seen by anyone for another few decades) rather than being with a family member that wanted them. I do not know how that came to be, but seems a shame.

    As for documents being with museums, of course they cannot display everything but many offer great research services. The documents, photos, etc often contain references to others in the unit of the donor and will probably help some family member somewhere along the way to understand what their relative did during WW2. Just because it is not on display does not mean that someone will not benefit.
     
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