Search for information on a WW2 Bren carrier veteran

Again from childhood memories aigburth seems to have some recall.

I think it will take some time to research all the information and see if it links into family history that I know.

Not sure any of the children are still alive but I will see what I can uncover

Brilliant help thanks

 

Seems he may have been wounded or, perhaps, medically discharged, as he qualified for the Silver War Badge. I am led to believe that the badge was given so that soldiers who had been discharged early would not be accosted in the street by the ladies who at that time were handing out white feathers (i.e. coward) to those whom they perceived to be healthy young men not in uniform.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge

Here is the proof, Badge No. 335810:



He was entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal:



Medal index card (can’t find a colour version at the moment):



Oddly I can’t find reference to his other number “1964” that you can see on his Attestation Form (that was into the Lancashire & Cheshire RGA).

There are some other pages from his record that I’ve not posted, but I can do so later for you. Mind you, as mentioned, Ancestry is free access for the next six or seven days, so if you click on this link, you should be able to see where I’m getting the info from:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/c...a8523be01&_phsrc=Ktn24&_phstart=successSource

The best place to find out about his WW1 service, by the way, is the GWF here:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/

Many friendly and helpful experts there, I have seen some amazing detective work there (as here).

Here’s just one thread there, for example:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/63858-lancashire-cheshire-rga-ta/

 

Information overload......lol

Your efforts are greatly appreciated and I know that many artillary were gassed during ww1 so that could be the reason.

Do you have knowledge of cap badges as I want to add them to a display to be handed down.

 

Not really an expert, but pretty sure the RGA cap badge would have been your usual RA cap badge, King’s Crown version (George V that is, not our Charlie):



However, I stand to be corrected and the best place for expertise on badges is the British Badge Forum, and there’s also a Classifieds section there where you can buy/sell and also advertise your wants:

The British Military Badge Forum

Medal expertise to be found here (same thing, has an items for sale/items wanted section):

British Medal Forum - Index page

The GWF would certainly be able to address many of your questions on badges and medals too, though, I’m sure.

Oh, found the lovely colour version of the medal card:

 

Your a star

My heads starting to hurt now..... lol

Lots of information moving forward

I just need to find his ww2 service history to link everything up

 

Know what you mean, I just had to go get a luvverly brew.

For that you need to apply for his records, as you may have been advised already:

Get a copy of military records of service

You shouldn’t have to provide a death certificate as Thomas Mann Upton was born more than 116 years ago. From what I can tell, 1896.

 

Currently using his given name he does not appear on The National Archives site (TNA). That may mean his record is still with the MoD or it is with TNA being processed for release. If you follow the web link given you can ask where it is and they will reply. Get a copy of military records of service

You need their full name, Date of Birth and Date of Death (later has to be an official document). Their Service Number is helpful, not a requirement.

Way to go yet!

I exclude applying for a WW1 record - where I have no knowledge.

 

With help from here, I have covered more ground in the few hours than I have been able to uncover in decades.
I appreciate I have a way to go and I had suspected that he had been in both wars but this is confirmation

Thanks for everyone's help to date

 

Well hopefully this is indeed your grandfather (or is it your great grandfather?). Let’s hope so, but maybe your further digging will help prove or disprove what we have so far.

 

More for your collection. Information overload INCOMING!!!

1901 Census:



1911:



1921:

 

That's brilliant thanks

It all links into the bigger picture.

 

Here is the WW1 service record in its entirety, as promised. Well, all that there is of it on Ancestry anyway. You will see the pages are damaged and that is very possibly as a result of a Luftwaffe raid in WW2 , which, sadly, destroyed or damaged many of the records from the previous conflict.

Some of the pages are a bit hard to read, but what can you do - it is possible there may be better images available on FMP, which is apparently going to be free to access tomorrow, hurrah.

The second page shows that he was discharged from the Army on 3rd March 1918 as a result of being gassed, which would explain his Silver War Badge. You will see on that same page that his character was described as “Very Good”.

His discharge date is confirmed by the Ministry of Pensions form that you can also see. A later page shows that he appeared before the medical board in Bagthorpe, Nottingham, on 10th February 1918.

It is ironic that being gassed may well have saved his life - not only because, of course, there were 9 more months of fighting to come, but the massive German spring offensive of 21st March 1918 took many more lives. Who knows - if he had still been at the front at that time, what could have been his fate…

Page three shows that he was sent his two medals, both of which would have been engraved/impressed with his service number, rank, name and Corps. You can see that he signed for receipt of the pair on 24 November, 1921.

WW2 campaign medals were not engraved by the British Government.

As I said earlier, the best place to go for help with his WW1 service is the GWF, starting a new thread in their “Soldiers and their units” section. Trust me, they’re brilliant there - I know from personal experience with my own great grandfather.

Well, that’s all I have, I will leave you alone now! If I post any more about WW1 I’ll probably be discombobulated from the WW2 community.

I truly hope this is the right man, just sorry that I can’t find any WW2 service info for him, although Thomas Mann Upton would have been 48 or so by the end of that little disagreement!

 

You've given me lots to take on board

This is great information and finding something from ww1 is rare based on your comment of the bombing.

I suppose if you thought about the what if.....it would drive you crazy.

Thanks again for your help and explanation

 

Hi again David.

Well, FMP is free from today for a bit so I popped over and took a look. The same service record is there, but FMP has indicated that Thomas was part of 297 Siege Battery RGA, whose war diaries can be found at The National Archives. I can see the 297 on the records now, but hadn’t noticed it before.

The diaries have been digitised and can be viewed for free - it says they cost £3.50, but to get them for free all you have to do is create an account, sign in, pop them into your basket, check out and download.

Here’s the diary for March 1917 to March 1918, for example, the period in which Thomas was gassed. Highly unlikely you’ll see his name to be honest, other ranks tended to remain anonymous so to speak unless they did something remarkable.

Army Troops. 297 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery | The National Archives

There are some threads about the 297th on the GWF by the way. A couple more snippets here too:

Allocations of Siege Batteries to higher commands, 281st to 300th - The Long, Long Trail

Siege Batteries of the Royal Garrison Artillery - The Long, Long Trail

 

Your going over and above and I really appreciate your efforts.

I will have to download the files to view at a later stage.

Just because I'm thick, what is FMP and GWF as I could use it to look at other bits as well.

I also found that Samuel was wounded on 1/11/1887 during the 3rd Burmese War between 1/5/1887 - 5/11/1887
Jowaki expedition and burmah clasps are mentioned and India
His number is 2374?

I also tried to get access to the medal forum and cap badge forum, but I can’t get registered as the final step on both doesn't seem to be working. I'll keep trying

Thanks again

Dave

 

FMP is Find My Past, I’m so used to just typing FMP, you forget others may not know what the hell you’re gibbering about.

The GWF is the Great War Forum - here it is:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/

You have to get approval to join blah blah blah, but you should be fine.

 

I know what you mean as I am an mechanical engineer and use abbreviations all the time without realising.

Most are too proud to ask but I don't care, if I don't know......ask.

I appreciate your help

I've downloaded the diaries and will be looking through them

Many thanks again

 

It looks like my grandfather was gassed on this day as it seems that not many occasions when it's mentioned gas call 25/1/18 page 27.

It could take years to unpick all this information if you wanted to see the exact location (unless you already know) as it seems you have vast knowledge.

Thanks

 

TNA issued this today: Research guides - The National Archives There fifty-one for WW1 ! So I didn't look further.

 

Very possible, yes, good spot. I’d looked at the diary briefly myself earlier, December to February 1918, looking for something gas-related, and didn’t see that entry at all!

Folk on the GWF may be able to tell you a lot more, I hope so.