Scammel Gun-tractors

In September 1939, my father's unit of the Royal Artillery at Larkhill was sent to France as part of the B.E.F. Their equipment included Scammel lorries, towing the 6" howitzer guns. Needless to say, none of these were returned to the U.K. ... having been destroyed/abandoned during the retreat to Dunkirk.
I cannot recall seeing any photos of a Scammel in use other than with the B.E.F. or on the Home Front. Were any of these examples used in other War zones, eg: North Africa ?

 

Dennis

I can visualise a number of pics of the Scammell R100 HAT in the desert and Italy, though have to say I cannot recall one in NW Europe.

Chris

 

What Regt was he with Dennis?

 

Dennis

I can visualise a number of pics of the Scammell R100 HAT in the desert and Italy, though have to say I cannot recall one in NW Europe.

Chris

The 56th Heavy Regt RA
bought there Scammels with them from Italy up through the South of France to Nijmegen (Holland) in March 1945, & kept them till May 45.
Though most Heavy Regts in N.W.Europe used 6x6 Mack Gun Towers.
Best
Rob

 

Thanks Rob. I thought they must have operated in NWE, but couldn't think of any pics!

Chris

 

The IWM photo archive is always worth a punt, although it doesn't have any post-Italian campaign gun tractors on line (the heavy recovery version does appear).

THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1943 | Imperial War Museums

In my opinion, the Scammell competes with the Morris-Commercial 8cwt for the 'Best looking vehicle of WW2' title but I am known for my 1940 fixation and liking for angular trucks.

 

The 56th Heavy Regt RA
bought there Scammels with them from Italy up through the South of France to Nijmegen (Holland) in March 1945, & kept them till May 45.
Though most Heavy Regts in N.W.Europe used 6x6 Mack Gun Towers.
Best
Rob


Nice Dutch Mack NO

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Dennis

I can visualise a number of pics of the Scammell R100 HAT in the desert and Italy, though have to say I cannot recall one in NW Europe.

Chris

Hi, Chris. I have a picture, photographed from an old book (1939/early1940), which shows the actual type of Scammel I am refering to. It has a 6" gun in tow. This is exactly how I recall it when I saw my father's unit leaving for France in SEPT 1939. ( Our family lived in Married Quarters at Larkhill Garrison ).
I tried several times, without success, to place this picture with my post . Can you suggest how I can obtain information through this really great WW2talk site, to enable me to both paste longer text items, and place a picture(s). I have Office 2007 installed on my PC, ..... I thought I'd almost got to within the last click, -- then it all fell apart ! Thanks, in anticipation.
Dennis.

 

The IWM photo archive is always worth a punt, although it doesn't have any post-Italian campaign gun tractors on line (the heavy recovery version does appear).

THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1943 | Imperial War Museums

In my opinion, the Scammell competes with the Morris-Commercial 8cwt for the 'Best looking vehicle of WW2' title but I am known for my 1940 fixation and liking for angular trucks.

Thanks, RICH. Your IWM picture shows what I'm almost sure is the type of Scammel that is the subject of my query, although if the rear half of the vehicle was visible, I'd know for sure. ( I ALWAYS LIKED THE LOOK OF THIS MONSTER, TOO ! ).
Dennis.

 

Yes that must be an R100 HAT. None of the other versions have a roof there for the cam net to sit on! And they would be unlikely to be towing such a gun. 254 indicates 56 Heavy Regiment (in 1943) according to Hodges and Taylor.

Chris

 

What Regt was he with Dennis?

As far as can be established from the Service Records obtained from Records Office, my father was with 6th Medium Battery R.A. when he left Larkhill for France in Sept 1939. I have a photo postcard that indicates he was billeted in RAIMBEAUCOURT, near Douai, Lille, during the "Phoney War" period, prior to the German offensive. We all regret not making notes whilst it was still possible, don't we. He died in 1969. Fortunately, I have a few papers,etc , but most of it relates to pre-war service in India, and unofficial stuff from his time as a P.O.W. (Taken at Tobruk, 1942).

Regards, DENNIS L.

 

The 56th Heavy Regt RA
bought there Scammels with them from Italy up through the South of France to Nijmegen (Holland) in March 1945, & kept them till May 45.
Though most Heavy Regts in N.W.Europe used 6x6 Mack Gun Towers.
Best
Rob


Not entirely true I think.

Macks were used in heavy regts to tow 155mm Guns M1, and presumably 7.2 inch Mk 6 which appeared in 1945 IIRC (this, like 155mm G used the US M1 carriage). Scammels were used to tow earlier Mks of 7.2.

The reason why Macks had to be used with the US carriages was that they had airbrakes and airlines. British carriages did not use airbrakes and Scammels did not have the connections. Macks remained in serice until c. 1970 being used to tow 8-inch on M1 carriages.

 

Not entirely true I think.
All British Heavy Regt diaries & Histories i have seen NW Europe 44/45 are using Mack's for their 7.2's & 155's, issued before D-Day, as well as a number of Medium Regts where they replaced the shortage of MAT's, hense the only ref to Scammels NWE 44/45 being the 56th as above.
If you can find a ref to a British Heavy or Super Heavy Regt using Scammels after D-Day till May 45 NWE other than the 56th, please let me know for my records.
Best
Rob

59th Heavy Regt RA ,NWE
with Mack towing 155mm
[/IMG
Unamed Medium Regt Mack towing 5.5

 

What Regt was he with Dennis?

6 Medium Battery, 3rd Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery. (1939).

 

RA Notes No 12 para 688 Jan 44 that states that Macks were second tractors, leading to Establishment III/220/2 effective 14 Jan 1944 for the heavy regiment authorises 'Tractors Heavy Artillery' to both types of heavy battery. In note (b) it states 'Gun tractors and spare tractor on battery headquarters will be tractors, 6x4 heavy. Second tractors will be tractors, 6x4, heavy or tractors, 6x6, heavy.'

RA Notes No 13 (Feb 44) notifies Estb III/220/2 and states: 'Mack, 7 1/2 ton, 6x6. A limited supply of US Mack 7 1/2 tractors, 6x6, will shortly become available. This vehicle is one of the standard American heavy artillery tractors.

As these Macks, 7 1/2 , 6x6, are allotted for the express purpose of towing the 155-mm gun, it is essential that they be used as the prime mover for this equipment, on the scale of 5 tractors for 4 guns. The second tractor per gun will remain the Scammel 6x4, or the Mack, 6-ton, 6x6 as stated in RA Notes No 11 para 633.

Reports on the performance of the Mack 7 1/2-ton, 6x6, will be welcome in due course.'

In summary, referring to a trial held by the School of Artillery, LARKHILL, of a Scammel towing a US 155-mm gun, the Scammel 6x4 could be modified with double airline brakes but without them a 155-mm gun could take control of when going downhill off-road.

RA Notes No 19 Aug 1944 para 1126 Heavy Artillery Tractors states:

'The Mack 7 1/2-ton 6x6, tractor is now arriving in sufficient numbers to allot one per 155-mm gun or 7.2-inch on 155-mm carriage as a prime mover. Second tractors and spare tractors in heavy batteries will continue to be one of the following types of heavy tractor:
(a) Scammel, 6x4
(b) Mack, 6-ton, 6x6
(c) Albion, 6x4.
(note in III/220/2 to be changed to reflect this)'

This indicates that Mack 7 1/2 ton were in short supply before and several weeks after D-Day. Given the delays in introducing 7.2 Mk 6, then its possible that some of the earmarked Mack 7 1/2 ton were issued to 7.2 batteries before the new guns were issued. Unfortunately I don't have the RA Notes dealing with Mack 6 ton or anything suggesting authorisation to use Mack 6-ton Heavy Artillery Tractor as a Medium Artillery Tractor.

 

Good post, Mapshooter.

I had almost forgotten about the NM.

What is a 'second tractor' in this context?

6 ton NM

Mack NM 6 Ton 6x6 Truck

 

There are a few photos of Scamell gun tractors in Spike Milligan's books.

He was in Tunisia and Italy with 56 Heavy regiment


Lawrence

 

Hi, Chris. I have a picture, photographed from an old book (1939/early1940), which shows the actual type of Scammel I am refering to. It has a 6" gun in tow. This is exactly how I recall it when I saw my father's unit leaving for France in SEPT 1939. ( Our family lived in Married Quarters at Larkhill Garrison ).
I tried several times, without success, to place this picture with my post . Can you suggest how I can obtain information through this really great WW2talk site, to enable me to both paste longer text items, and place a picture(s). I have Office 2007 installed on my PC, ..... I thought I'd almost got to within the last click, -- then it all fell apart ! Thanks, in anticipation.
Dennis.

You can find out how to attach images in the FAQ section click here.