S.S. Livingston lost 3/9/44

S.S. Livingston was lost after being attacked by U541 south of Cabot Strait, off Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Lloyd's and uboat.net say was lost with 13 crew and 1 gunner from 26 crew and 2 gunners onboard.

CWGC list the following ten Merchant Navy and one Royal Navy casualties.

Boatswain George B. Cunning (23) [HalM]
Fireman Hubert Fry (22) [HalM]
Oiler C.R. Pieroway (36) [HalM]
Fireman Samuel A. Raike (22) [HalM]
Able Seaman Hubert Short (43) [HalM]
Chief Engineer Officer A.H. Thomas (35) [HalM]
Second Engineer Michael Carew (34) [HalM]
Wireless Operator Lloyd J. Bishop (27) [HalM]
Chief Cook Cecil G. Clarke (32) [HalM]
Oiler Hezekiah J. Clarke (34) [HalM]

SHIRLEY, Leroy F, Act/Able Seaman, C/JX 219111, (President III), MPK [ChM]

So are Lloyd's/uboat.net in error with the casualty numbers or have the CWGC missed three additional crew deaths, any ideas?

Regards

Steve

 

Hi Steve,
An error in both.

We know uboat.net is a permanent work in progress so the crew lists are not complete. Lloyd's War Losses, the standard reference work for British merchant shipping losses, has unfortunately quite a lot of errors - which is not unexpected given the sheer amount of information but none-the-less frustrating when errors are discovered.

I have found the last crew list before the sinking dated late August 1944 - she was lost on 3 Sept 1944. The crew numbered 28 as stated including the two RN DEMS gunners, Leroy F. Shirley the one who was killed. All the other names you list above are on this crew list.

I have found two names not mentioned in uboat.net or CWGC - they are Oscar Nielson, Chief Steward and Gordon Kenneth Carew, AB. Strange thing is that Michael Carew, 2nd Engineer is on the Halifax Memorial and the Canadian Virtual Memorial but Gordon Kenneth Carew is not mentionned on the Halifax Memorial [maybe he was buried ashore?] but is listed on the Canadian Virtual Memorial despite both being Newfoundlanders.

Oscar Nielson was born in 1916 in Durham to a Swedish father also of the same name, and also a merchant seaman, and also killed at sea but in 1942. So if he was English why is he not on the Tower Hill Memorial? So is this a possible non-commemoration? PaulC

This is the file reference for the sinking of the ss LIVINGSTON from the Canadian Archives: Sadly not a digital object so would need a researcher:
https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redirect?app=fonandcol&id=914568&lang=eng

Also HMCS BARRIE landed the other DEMS gunner who I have as William Lutton, the Master Rueben Robinson and 12 crew members. This then leaves one man unaccounted for in the deaths. I have done some research on the remainder of the crew and cannot find any conclusive other death.
Unfortunately, the Survivor's Report for ss LIVINGSTON is one I don't have in my files.

****Further research has confirmed the missing man lost at sea appears to be Ronald Joseph O'Brien who was the third engineer. Uboat has him as a survivor citing personal communication and the wrecksite has him as lost at sea on that date.
I have three men who appeared to have deserted or missed the sailing of the ship in New York but but rejoined her a day later in Boston. They were Oscar Nielsen, Ronald O' Brien and Edgar Richards. Sadly for Nielsen and O'Brien it was the wrong decision****.

Ronald O'Brien (1914-1944) - Find a Grave...

Regards
Hugh

 

Not entirely sure that I've followed all of the above, but let's see. From Steve's post it appears that the two men listed on uboat but not on CWGC are:

O'Brien, Ronald, Merchant Navy, Crew member
Robinson, Reuben Thomas, Merchant Navy, Master

Are we saying that Robinson survived?

Nielson is on CWGC as a casualty of SS Empire Howard in 1942, so I'm not sure what he has to do with the Livingstone in 1944?

That leaves O'Brien and GK Carew as potential non-commemorations?

It appears that a digital copy of the Canadian Archives record can be purchased, but it's not clear how much this service would cost, or how big the document is.

 

Hi Paul,

Confusing due to the same names, but as Hugh notes, the Oscar Nielson lost in 1942 was the father of the Oscar Nielson lost on Livingston.

Oscar Nielson was born in 1916 in Durham to a Swedish father also of the same name, and also a merchant seaman, and also killed at sea but in 1942.

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Paul,

Rueben Robinson, the master survived.

From my research there are three non-commemorated merchant seamen from ss LIVINGSTON.

Ronald O'Brien is shown as having survived on uboat.net but it is almost certain he was killed and is non-commemorated.
Oscar Neilson (junior) was lost on the ss LIVINGSTON it was his father, same name, a Swede, who was killed in 1942 aboard EMPIRE HOWARD. Oscar Neilson (jnr) was born in Durham in 1916 and is mentioned on the Canadian Virtual Memorial but not on the Halifax or Towerhill Memorials so is non-commemorated.
GK Carew is non-commemorated too, he is mentioned on the Canadian Virtual Memorial but not Halifax.

The Canadian Virtual Memorial - this is different with regard to the CWGC.

My understanding: a special section of the Halifax Memorial was also included for the sailors of the Newfoundland Merchant Navy who between 3 September 1939 and 31 December 1947 went to sea never to return. Newfoundland did not become part of Canada until 1949.

I will make contact with the Canadian Archives and see what they say about costs

Regards
Hugh

 

I made contact with the Canadian Archives - the costs were very reasonable. The file records the list of survivors (14) and the list of those missing (14). Three merchant seamen, namely, Ronald O'Brien, Oscar Neilson (jnr) and Gordon Kenneth Carew - from the list of the missing - are the names not listed on the Halifax Memorial.

I have sent a letter to the CWGC making a case for their inclusion on the Halifax Memorial or perhaps in the case of Oscar Neilson (jnr), the Towerhill Memorial.

I will let you know how it goes.

Regards
Hugh