Royal Engineer Establishments - Italian Campaign

As part of my research into the service of Colonel L E A Gwynne CBE, I am trying to establish the strength of the units under his command during his time in Italy.

These were:

8th Army Troops RE and 22 Army Group Royal Engineers.

I attach details of the units under his command.

A rough Idea will do... Also what was the typical establishment of an Engineer Company during the Italian Campaign?

Any help would be appreciated.

Julian

 

I believe the establishment for a standard RE Field Company at this time was 7 officers and 248 ORs.

 

Thank you

Julian

 

Figures from some units/HQs based on the standard WEs in force in 1944;

HQ of GHQ, Army Troops or Corps Troops Engineers; 5 officers, 22 ORs
Field Company; 7 officers, 249 ORs
Field Park Company, with E&M Section (Type "A"); 5 officers, 187 ORs

Bomb Disposal Section; 1 officer, 31 ORs (assume Platoon became the new designation for Section, as in other RE units?)

An RASC Transport Platoon was usually 1 officer and 60 ORs, though if detached from its parent Company that could be increased by personnel being attached to it.

I can't quite read the entry, but if it says Pioneer Company, standard strength appears to have been 6 officers and 284 ORs.

There were separate WEs issued for Italian units serving with the Allies, I won't pretend to know what they might have been personnel wise for the Italian units indicated. Likewise, South Africa had its own WEs, nominally similar to British ones but never having gotten near a single SA WE they could be quite different. Those for 2 NZEF started very closely mirroring British WEs in 1941 and 1942 but by 1944 there were marked differences, so the evolution of South African WEs could have gone a similar route.

Gary

 

Here is a return from 501 Field Company, Royal Engineers in October 1943.

The WE is given as VI/721/1 and seems to match (248 ORs + 7 Officers) most of the other RE Field Companies in Italy at this time whose WDs I have.



This is equivalent for October 1944. The WE is now 11/194/2 and the figures are as Gary mentions 249 ORs and 7 Officers.

 

Yes, VI/721/1 was the Middle East issue of the WE of a Field Company or Squadron (effective 27th January 1943). It was based on II/194/1 of 14th October 1942, with both having 7 officers and 248 ORs. Units coming over from North Africa operated on a mix of Volume II and Volume VI WEs.

Gary

 

Gary

Thank you for this information. I am in the process of producing a short film of Col Gwynne's war in Italy and have gone for an approximate establishment for 8th Army Troops RE of 24 officers and 1000 men (3 Field Companies and 1 Field Park Company) and circa 3000 men for 22 Army Group RE including all the pioneer attachments.

Julian

 

Hello Julian.

585, 586 and 587 where originally based in Edinburgh. They sailed for Tunisia on route the ship carrying 585 was sunk with the loss of a lot of the unit.

The survivors of 585 then formed 585 Field Park Company and serviced as Army troops R. E. along with 586, 587 and 7 Field Companies.

I am interested in learning anything about 585,586, and 587 as post war in 1969 they became
104 (City of Edinburgh) Field Squadron RE. 71(Scottish) Engineer Regiment (Volunteers). In which I served from 1981 to 1996

Cheers Ian

 

Ian,

Thank you for your post. You have solved a family mystery. My wife's grandfather, Lt Col LEA Gwynne, was appointed CRE First Army Troops (later 8th Army Troops) on 20.8.42 before they embarked on the 9.11.42 for Tunisia. We always knew that he was devastated to loose a large number of his men in an incident and had thought this was during enemy action in Tunisia. This was clearly not the case and I would be interested to know more about the circumstances of the sinking.

We have the photo album that Col Gwynne's kept of his war service. I attach an extract as well as the a page from the Royal Engineers in Italy book which he annotated.

We spent this summer following his route from Sicily up through Italy to the River Po visiting all the 8th Army Troops bridge sites.

Cheers Julian

 

Hello Julian

Many thanks for the reply.

Attached is a photo of a print out of units histories unfortunately it is very basic.

There is a 104 Field Sqn history which I lent to a mate. I just need to find my spare copy.

I believe that 585, 586 and 587 where involved with the first Bailey Bridge built under fire by 237 Field Company over the river Medjerda at Madjez el Bab on the 25th of November 1942 in Tunisia.

 

Here's the photo

 

Sapper8863.

Would you mind posting every page?

Regards

Frank

 

Ian,

Absolutely, they were involved and here's a picture of the bridge from Colonel Gwynne's Photo album.

If you would like to view the album let me know.

Do you have any more information of the sinking of the ship carrying 585 Field Company RE ?

Julian

 

Hello Frank

There are over 50 pages. I will see if I can find the original source on line and link it in. Although I have had this for a lot if years so the original may have disappeared in that case I will sort it out.

 

As a Sapper I would love to see the photos.

From a the net I have seen a photo of this site possibly from the other side. There is a FBE bridge there as well on the down stream side of the bridge.

As a modeller I am hoping to make a model of this bridge site with both the Bailey and FBE bridges I place. Luckily I run a small model company and will be releasing a 1/76th model kit of a Bailey Bridge next year.

Once I find the Sqn history I will send post the info relevant to the sinking, Tunisia and Italy.

237 Fld Sqn built the Bridge at Medgez EL Bab. Apparently after recovering the equipment from transport set on fire by an air attack.

Very little is mentioned about your grandfather or 585in the official "The History of the Corps of Royal Engineers"

Here are the pages in question.

 

Julian,

I have been following your various threads relating to Colonel Gwynne for sometime now and finally have plucked up courage to comment. My Grandfather (David Donaldson Murdoch service no 2025194) served from 1936 with City of Edinburgh Fortress to 1940 then with 587th field Coy. All I ever had to go on aside a few photos was the attached rather 'tongue in cheek' account we found after his death in 1997.

"MURDIE'S GRAND TOUR"

It all began in the Petticur Hotel in Kinghorn. A tour round the islands of the Forth, beautiful. We then did the English resorts, Scarborough, Saltburn, Southwold etc. Then the cities, London, Hull, Halifax and many more of historical interest. After about two years we knew Britain really well. We set our eyes overseas. We boarded a lovely Greek liner at Greenock and sailed into the Atlantic, a great view of the Irish coast. Let me say at this stage the catering was superb. Travelling South we crossed the lovely Bay of Biscay, normally rough but for us it was as calm as a lake. Now rounding Southern Spain and through the Straits of Gibralter, into the Mediterranean and our first view of Algiers, all pink in the sunlight like a fairyland of candyfloss.
After refreshments and sightseeing in the Kasbah etc we boarded another ship to Bone. Here we sampled the oranges, not the shop bought variety but ripened on the tree, the difference was unbelievable. We then entered the Sahara. Who can describe the Sahara? The moon sinking in the horizon, the sky white with stars. The sun rising like a great orange warming everything with its rays. The never ending space, humbling the proudest men. As insignificant as the endless ribbons of ants, less important than the Scarab beetle forever cleaning the desert.
We visited Arab villages Le Kef, Khemis, Medjez el Bab, Kasserine etc before visiting Tunis. Here we were entertained by marching pipers of the Highland Division. We had more to see, sailing form Sousse we went to Sicily, what a place. A garden of Eden, everywhere one looked there was fruit, grapes, apricots, peaches and pears. We gorged ourselves, I would have liked to stay but our guides had a time schedule, so we crossed from Messina to Reggio and Italy.
Calabria was nice but the mosquitoes were a pest. Now we went North , Bari, Barletta, Forli and a lovely village called Mozzagrogna in the Sangro valley. Our guide said we must see more of the West so we crossed the mountains to a place called Cassino. We were there for some time with the beautiful view of the monastry on a hill. Beautiful, well worth the visit. Later we saw Rome, Sienna, and the leaning Tower of Pisa. Then East again to Venice and the lovely Po Valley, Udine etc.
We then went through the pass to Austria, so like our own Scotland it made us a little homesick and pleased to start our homeward trek. We went back to Milan this seemed strange but the reason was good. We were taken through the famous Simplex Pass, through a mountain into Switzerland. The scenery was fascinating. Our tour went through France, I fell asleep and was roused by a mate in time to open one eye and see the Eiffel Tower. We sailed from Dieppe aboard the HMS Oxford to Newhaven. All this travel was free yet it cost me tuppence on the tram to Dalry. A little scared I knocked on my door, the door opened and I faced the punishment, Where the hell you been? she said.
Ah well when you have been all over Europe for nowt you can stand a bit of nagging!

David Donaldson Murdoch


I can't begin to thank you enough for sharing your archive, it has filled in so many details for me particularly as TNA will not release his service records. The atlas page with dates matching the locations in his account and the photographs especially.

Thank you again it has been wonderful reading your posts,

Gill

 

Sapper8863.

Yes please.

F

 

Dear Gill.

Many thanks for posting your grandfather's poem.

104(City of Edinburgh) Field Squadron. T.A. Traces its history back to the Forth Fortress Regiment.

I fact we proudly wore the blue square flash on our No2 dress uniforms which is based on the old Forth Fortress flag.

The second photo is one we are having printed onto plop shirts etc for our old comrades to obtain as 104 was disbanded in 1999.

The chap who organized the badge Sandy Brown joined 585 Field Squadron before 104 was raised in 1969. He then went on to serve with 104 until it was disbanded.

Hopefully Sandy will join this group and can add more information as he knew a lot of the older members pre 104.

104 was based at Redhall View in Edinburgh just along the road from Dalry.

Best regards

Ian

 

Gill.

Apparently you send a request for information using this link to the MOD they can then look at any records they have and provide copies of them.


Get a copy of military service records

Also R. E. Manning and records should be able to help with your grandfather's service records.

If you have his army number. If not check the edge of any medals he was awarded it should be there with his rank at the time they where awarded.

There maybe someone on here who can help.

Ian

 

Ian,

Thanks so much for the information, the flash particularly as my photos too blurry to make out such detail. Sadly I have already applied for his service records but TNA have said they can't open them as would be breaching third party confidentiality (imagination running riot at that).

I have a couple of Edinburgh Fortress pics I'll upload below one looks like Broughty Ferry with no date (Grandad bottom left), the other Southwold 1940 with Edinburgh Fortress battery written on the back. Thanks again,
Gill