Ribbon query

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by A.Moore, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Not sure this is the right place to ask but I was wondering if anyone could help solve this ribbon mystery?
    Attached a photograph of my grandad's medals. I'm stumped as to why he would have a ribbon for the India General Service Campaign Medal of 1936.

    He served in India from December 1929 - January 1936. My grandmother sent a letter to the MOD in the late '80s to which they replied that the 1st battalion East Yorkshire Rgt was not included on the list of units eligible for the medal. Why would he have the ribbon? The other medals are definitely his.

    Hope someone has an idea! Thanks.

    Attached Files:

  2. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    One possibility, I'm afraid to say, is that it might have been "self-awarded" in a sense that he felt he was entitled, notwithstanding the view of officialdom. A WW2 sailor I know has a France & Germany Star in his group, notwithstanding he already had an Atlantic Star - and should therefore have a "France & Germany" clasp on the Atlantic (which is missing). It is very unlikely that he would have been officially issued an F&G Star.
  3. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Thanks for your reply, Phil. The thought had crossed my mind. I have quite a lot of postcards and a few personal documents (from friends) of the North-West Frontier. My mum always thought he spent time in Razmak, perhaps he was there for a month, or not at all. Unfortunately I have no records of his exact whereabouts in India.

    How would he have obtained the ribbon?
  4. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Specialist retailers sold/sell medal ribbon.

    Aren’t the Indian GSM medal rolls available on Ancestry (or findmypast)?

    I note he has a MID emblem on the War Medal. That award will be recorded in the London Gazette.

    BTW The Defence Medal & War Medal are usually displayed with the “King’s Head” visible.

    WW2 British and Commonwealth Campaign Medals

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  5. Richelieu

    Richelieu Well-Known Member

    The starting point is to obtain his full service record: Get a copy of military service records. In the meantime the group may be able to assist if you could provide further details.

    Do you have his IGSM? Unlike the WW2 medals that you have it would have had his details officially impressed on the rim. An immediate discrepancy with your account is that the IGSM 1936-1939 was only awarded for two periods of service in the North West Frontier, the earliest starting 24 November 1936, so too late if he left India in January 1936. The previous IGSM 1908-1935 has a different ribbon and was issued with a clasp for specific campaigns, and not just for being present in India.

    The medal rolls can be downloaded for free from TNA.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  6. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

    I do have my grandfather's military service records in which there is no mention of the IGSM. He did return to the UK January '36. We don't have his IGSM, only the ribbon, that's why I found it so strange. My grandmother requested the IGSM in the late '80s after he had passed away expecting the MOD to send the medal but in return she received a letter saying that the East Yorkshire Regiment was not included on the list of units eligible.

    The MID is for commanding an anti-tank section in Weeze in February '45, I found the London Gazette. I hadn't realised The Defence Medal & War Medal were usually displayed with the king’s head visible!
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  7. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Your grandfather might have qualified if he had been attached to another (entitled) unit during a qualifying period. Formation HQ and training entities amongst others are largely manned this way. Personal staff for senior officers might also find themselves in interesting places. If so, this ought to be in his Service Record. You say he returned to the UK in Jan 36, so entitlement is doubly questionable. Nevertheless, have a look at some old photos post date and see if he is wearing the medal ribbon on them. If so - and particularly if serving with the 1st Bn and pictured in group settings - it would be very improbable that he would do so, if not somehow entitled. RSMs and CSMs in particular notice these things.
  8. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I have no photographs of my grandad wearing his medals. I've been going through his service records again and though there is a lot of info regarding 2 Bn EYR during WW2 and post WW2, there's near to nothing on his time in India. Only when he enlisted, when to when he was in India and when he returned home. I also have his 'Regular Army Certificate of Service' from his time in India - no additional info in there either.

    I really appreciate all your thoughts and help, thanks!
  9. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    The point is, surely, that there ISN'T an IGS 36 in the group, only a ribbon. And if he left India in January 1936, he wouldn't have qualified: If there is no mention on his service records, I regret my initial belief stands.

    "North-West Frontier 1936–37.

    Awarded for service within the geographic limit between the dates 24th November, 1936 – 16th/17th January, 1937 and 16th/17th January, 1937 – 15th/16th December, 1937. Officially defined via AO [Army Order] 168 of 1938."

    No problems with getting bits of ribbon - any unit tailor could get some, or even gentlemen's outfitters out of the service, the types who sold regimental ties, supplied it.

    The record of the MID is eminently findable (I can help in that regard, I have several sources) , but the likelihood of finding exactly what he got it for is much less likely - unless there are mentions (pun not intended) in regimental histories or journals.
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  10. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Agreed, Phil!
    With regards to the MID, my gran always kept these (attached photos) together with his medals. I assumed the first document was the reason for his MID. 1945_27_02_Weeze.jpeg MID.JPEG
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  11. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    I have seen very few of those Divisional Gallantry Certificates - that is a cracker!
    Looking for the actual Gazette page (the LG's search engine is not fit for purpose).
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  12. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    E. York R.
    'Lt.-Col. (actg.) J. S. EYRE (44097)-
    Maj. (temp.) J. R. ATKIN (130977).
    Maj'. (temp.) R. J. H. DEBRETT (62598).
    Maj. (temp.) H.. N. RABAN 1(134330).
    Maj. (temp.) A. B. RIALI. (50902).
    Capt. (Qr.-Mr.) A. E. UPTON (227768).
    Capt. (temp). D. W. LITTLE (134329).
    Lt. J. H. KEMP (3120048).
    4341259 Sergt. F. MOORE.
    4342294 Sergt. A. NICHOLSON.
    4341260 Cpl. G. PALMER.
    4348288 Cpl. A. THOMPSON.
    2328730 Lce.-Cpl. L. LYNN.
    4860793 Lce.-Cpl. J. F. MATHER.
    1345974 Lce.-Cpl. C. WYATT

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  13. A.Moore

    A.Moore Member

    Thanks for this!

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