RAF - Deciphering WW2 record of service & death by misadventure.

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by CarolynQuinn, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

     
  2. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

    Thank you for your replies, Harry and David.

    Sorry for my late response. I have been so fascinated by all this, when I finally looked up it was 3:30am here which would explain my eyes closing momentarily every now and again - so time for some proper sleep.

    The family being sent back to London in 1939, turned out to be quite unsafe. My mother often talked about the London bombings during the war and the following Depression. Quite a hard time for them, with AEN then dying in 1943.

    Anyway, I am getting a few pieces of the puzzle together about why AEN was in Blackpool when he died but his family was living in London. This was always a mystery, but it now seems he was stationed near Blackpool (I think I am right with that?).
     
  3. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

    I have attached a couple of photos,
    1) AE Nicholl's medals and
    2 ) a photo of him Front row 1st person right of centre sitting in front of some armoured cars in Iraq in 1920 (we think.
     
  4. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    His last posting of ACD places him in Blackpool rather than stationed near. It looks like it was too soon after posting for him to change his off station address to Blackpool from local in Padgate/Warrington so he either looked at the move as temporary eg for inmate treatment or if he was staff, still in local transit accomodation in Blackpool.

    ORB will have mention if he had been appointed to staff(establisment)
    1 Airmen's Convalescent Depot, Blackpool, formed March 1940 (ACD UK). With appendices | The National Archives

    I think the ACD location was one of the Hotels in Harrowside, and Carriage Drive was in the vicinity of the Metropol Hotel - just under a 1 hr walk at 2.7 miles. Most of the larger Hotels on the sea front had been taken over as accomodation/dispersed unit facility locations.

    Nice to see the Armoured Car Company photo, it fits with the bulk of the units he was posted to during this period and was essential in keeping the fledgling RAF funded during the post WWI spending cuts and allowing it to still be in existence when the expansion period of the 1930s returned.

    Ross
     
  5. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    The formal arranged group photo are a good sign of seniority of rank.

    Officer Commanding, front and centre.
    Usually flanked by descending rank subordinate staff.
    NCO front rank outer and
    OR front fringe and rear.

    This suggests that he was senior staff at the time of the photograph so unlikely to be 1920s.

    Looking at the outer two Armoured Cars they are Crossley IGA3 which puts the photo from Aden in the mid 1930s

    RAF Armoured Car in Aden 1936

    Think the middle is Rolls Royce but cannot make out the HMAC name

    Regards
    Ross
     
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  6. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

    View attachment 301978 Thank you very much, Ross. You have provided me with a huge amount of very interesting information and it is helping me actually read AEN's RAF records ie decipher what the entries mean. I am still getting my head around how to access the documents held by National Archives. I am a member but it seems to me that I can't view the documents in the links above because they haven't been digitalised - although it might be that I just don't know how to do it.

    From your information above and by zooming in on the RAF records , AEN was posted to 1ACD on 16 Nov. 1942. I recalled that I have a book that belonged to my mother (AEN's daughter) that she received as a Sunday School prize. I found it and I have attached the inscription which shows she attended the Risley Methodist Sunday School, Fearnhead in 1942. A Google search shows the churches' address as Fearnhead Lane, Fearnhead, and AEN's death certificate for 25 March 1943 records his usual address as 89 Fearnhead Lane, Padgate so it seems the family was living at Padgate in 1942-1943 and not in London. If AEN was posted/living at Blackpool from 16 Nov 1942,then he wasn't living with his family in Padgate?

    ps The photo I have as my Avatar on WW2talk is AEN on his wedding day in 1928.

    Regards, Carolyn
     
  7. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Pre and wartime RAF was arranged to have billet/barracks/mess on main domestic site of Station or on remote domestic sites to house nearly all the OR and Officers on establishment.

    Few Officer or OR married quarters were provided - usually for Station Commander and a few of his subordinates. So the norm was for the airman to live on base or in local impressed Billet with any wife/dependants in their own arranged private accommodation elsewhere in the realm. As most accommodation round a wartime RAF Station had been requisitioned there was simply no available houses/digs.

    To live out required specific application, review and permission of the Station Commander as it meant that the economy of scale for bulk messing could not be achieved and extra pay/allowances were needed by the airman.

    As Warrant Officer he fell between the on site accommodation of Officers Mess and Sergeants Mess and it was normally thought that the W/O would want live out with family hence the Warrington address.

    This is why I think that he was a patient at ACD and had not received permission to live out - also with the number of Blackpool hotels and digs that had been requistioned by services any private rooms would be at a premium.

    As for the records you must understand that they were not created and maintained with the foresight of making readable for todays family researcher.

    They were part of an immense records collection known as the RAF Registry. Common use unit abbreviations were used by the clerks and elsewhere in the Registry other documents gave detail. So you need to think like an RAF Clerk of the time to follow.

    Form 543 was the service file wrapper and was maintained as a compressed handy reference to other documents in the file or Registry. For example the entry mustering and promotions gave a summary of what would be several sheets located in the file. Also included would be Medical History sheets. The detail of posting is condensed from the unit Casualty Forms (used for all movements regardless of physical state) and the reason column simply refers to the signal reference in the Unit day to day files or POR - Personnel Occurence Report.

    The clerks would glean information for the service record from the daily/weekly signals and enter it.

    Parts of the massive RAF Registry survive in the TNA allowing a small measure of retracing the paper trail the clerks followed but as you have found very few have currently been digitised for download - only AIR27 unit series - the vast majority need either personal access or pay for copies by remote staff.

    What seemed meagre records you received - do contain the complete service history of AEN - it just needs understanding of RAF of the time and reading round other documents to give local events context. Amazing what one column out of 4 pages has revealed to you.

    Ross
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  8. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

    thanks, Ross

    I am very grateful for the assistance you have given me. I wouldn't have known any of the information otherwise. The questions I ask are because I am interested in AEN's records and the process in general - all fascinating. Over the years I have never had much luck trying to access records held in the National Archives and I am curious aabout how it is done.

    May I ask how you know where to look in the Archives for a particular item, for example how would I look for 2 A.C.C. assuming I know nothing about how the Archives work. I have Army records for another family member and if I know how to access the National Archives, I might be able to follow up.
     
  9. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    To give context to the Form 543.

    In answering questions on why this Form was so small for a service record I wrote this piece on Form 280 almost 10 years ago.

    Form 280 – Certificate of Service, Airman – RAFCommands

    I used Kings Regulations and Air Force Instructions to verify what the actual content and purpose was, including the disposal schedule.

    Near the bottom of the page is a hyperlink which takes you to the referenced Form 120 and Form 121
    Forms 120 & 121 : Service Conduct & General Conduct Sheets – RAFCommands

    So this describes what his service record once contained and how Form 543 is really just a surviving handy index sheet.

    Hardest part of using a Form 543 is to recognise the abbreviations for units - most are self evident but the more rarely used need a wider understanding of RAF Formations of the time.

    Educated guesses can be made from normal career progression, mustering and command location of previous units.

    This is why I say you need to think like a RAF records clerk of the time period.

    Once you have either the full title of the formation or a good stab at some of the words then the TNA search engine is the next call.

    Use the advanced version so you can limit the found returns using AIR to give RAF/Air Ministry docs.

    try the exact phrase first eg 2 Armoured Car Company (avoid including Number or No. as it confuses the search) and if no joy reduce the terms eg Armoured Car

    This will give the piece references and you can click through to a bit of file summary - most of the time if you are looking for dates/locations this will suit your needs.

    At least then you will have some target references for further study.

    Only a few AIR records have been digitized (mostly AIR27 - Squadron ORBs and Appendices) so to see what the file contains needs you to arrange to have the file copied and sent to you personally - this can be done by either TNA document reproduction staff or you can arrange a private researcher to do this for you. One caveat - some files run to 400 to 600 pages so be prepared for a high cost for what will be priceless information to you.

    My field is RAF records and I only have a sketchy knowledge of War Office/Army records best way forward to to shout up on this board and similar Army nerds will be glad to help.

    Ross
     
  10. CarolynQuinn

    CarolynQuinn Alfred Ernest Nicholl - RAF grandfather

    Thank you very much for your help, Ross

    I have managed to download (for free) from TNA the 207 (B) squadron records and eventually I realised the B stands for Bomber :).

    I was wondering whether anyone can help me with the following, I have looked on the internet generally, this site and TNA with no luck:

    1) 82nd Gen Hospital records. AEN was there 5-19.06.1923. I was hoping I might glean some information as to why he was there.
    2) Which hospital/where would he have been admitted for the admission 08.1 - 06.2/1933. Would it have been in Aden? Would I be able to find his hospital records.
    3) What does S & SD stand for - transferred there 07 02 1933.
    4) Which hospital/where would he have been admitted for the 2 admissions between1/1/1934 and 11 05 1934. Would I be able to find these records?
    5) What does 3Wq3 Depot/RC stand for - transferred there 14.11.1939.
    6) What does 4W3RC stand for. Would I be able to find these records.
    7) What does L/A/S/pd stand for (Acting Sergeant, paid?) with regard to a promotion.

    Any assistance gratefully received.

    regards, Carolyn
     
  11. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    1) 82nd Gen Hospital records. AEN was there 5-19.06.1923. I was hoping I might glean some information as to why he was there.

    Hospital records will not give individual patient entries - just totals if included at all.
    His patient info would have been in his service record medical history cards. As given in my link to Form 280
    Destroyed
    "
    (d) Medical History Envelopes and documents..

    ..Fifteen years after the airman becomes non-effective."

    2) Which hospital/where would he have been admitted for the admission 08.1 - 06.2/1933. Would it have been in Aden? Would I be able to find his hospital records.

    Hospital records will not give individual patient entries - just totals if included at all.
    His patient info would have been in his service record medical history cards. As given in my link to Form 280
    Destroyed
    "
    (d) Medical History Envelopes and documents..

    ..Fifteen years after the airman becomes non-effective."

    3) What does S & SD stand for - transferred there 07 02 1933.

    Stores and Supply Depot

    4) Which hospital/where would he have been admitted for the 2 admissions between1/1/1934 and 11 05 1934. Would I be able to find these records?

    Hospital records will not give individual patient entries - just totals if included at all.
    His patient info would have been in his service record medical history cards. As given in my link to Form 280
    Destroyed
    "
    (d) Medical History Envelopes and documents..

    ..Fifteen years after the airman becomes non-effective."

    5) What does 3Wq3 Depot/RC stand for - transferred there 14.11.1939.

    No.3 Wing, 3 Depot Receiving/Recruit Centre

    6) What does 4W3RC stand for. Would I be able to find these records.

    No.4 Wing, 3 Receving/Recruit Centre
    Air Crew Holding Unit: 3 RAF Depot. Formed at Padgate (UK) in April 1939. Became 3 RAF... | The National Archives

    7) What does L/A/S/pd stand for (Acting Sergeant, paid?) with regard to a promotion.

    Acting Sgt (no L on record) - doing the job of Sgt but not promoted - doing it well enough to warrant the pay.

    Ross
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021

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