Private John Henry Irwin 5193334 1/4 Essex Regiment

Hello I am trying to find out more information about my grandad John Henry Irwin 5193334 1/4 Essex Regiment. He served in Egypt and Italy. He was missing in action and wounded I belive at Cassino. I have his full army record's but cannot read a lot of it or make sense of it. I would like to know what he did and served please and what his unit was at Cassino and afterwards.

 

jtirwin69,

Welcome aboard. You are in luck one of our distant (geographical) members Charley Fortnum has a focus on:

I expect he will help when he arrives.

Your grandad's name and number have not appeared here before. Incidentally he was enlisted first in the Gloucestershire Regiment (infantry), so may have transferred to the Essex Regt. - that should appear on his record.

If you search online with: "1/4 essex" site:ww2talk.com that will identify many threads here.

Back later when chores plus done to have a look at the record itself.

 

He was with the 5th Indian Infantry Brigade Reconnaissance Squadron.

Please check your messages here and contact me by email.

 

He may have been at Cassino.

This extract from the 5 Ind Bde Signals Section shows that Bde HQ reached Venafro - south of Cassino on 28 Jan 44 and it would have been logical for the 5 Ind Bde Recce Sqn to have moved with them - they are the eyes and ears of the Bde and the Bde Comd would have wanted them in before the Main Body in order to get a good feel for the place.

The Bde Main Body did not start to leave the Adriatic coast area (Castelfrentano) until 1 Feb 44.



His time at Cassino would have been brief if he was reported Missing in Action on 31 Jan 44. I suspect that he went missing in the system because the Recce Sqn would have been working with II (US) Corps at the time and he may have gone through their evacuation chain - 5 Ind Bde would not have had their own evacuation chain established yet because their 17 Field Ambulance would still have been on the Adriatic coast.

He returned to the Recce Sqn via 98 Gen Hosp and B Transit Camp on 19 Apr 44 by which time the Bde was no longer on Snakeshead Ridge. 78 Inf Div took over at the very end of Mar 44 and 4 Ind Div was sent back to the Adriatic coast at Orsogna. He would have rejoined them there.

Regards

Frank

 

Thanks Frank that's great

 

Service Record: Private John Henry Irwin 5193334

I have ignored the original document details (to the best of my knowledge they were not retained for historians). Below are the dates and the information provided (not quotes) and in italics additional information and sources. Note use of X (iv) is usually prefixed List X.

You will have to consider further research on this site and elsewhere. Wiki provides pointers, not complete answers.

For reference see: WW2 Abbreviations and Acronyms | Researching the Lives and Records of WW2 Soldiers

Sheet pg.4

15/01/1942 Deemed to have enlisted.

16/01/1942 Cleethorpes Training Centre. Posted 8 ??

??/10/1942 Was exposed to a CW agent during the week ending ??/10/1942. Never seen a mention of a Chemical Warfare agent, possibly CS Gas? This may explain references elsewhere to a Medical Allowance.

30/12/1942 Transfer to Sussex Regt.

30/01/1944 Missing in Italy unconfirmed.

07/02/1944 Admit 98 GH, not now missing. 98 GH is 98 British General Hospital.; Bari (Italy) 10/43 to 6/46. From: Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders

Sheet pg. 12a

15/01/1942 Joined 2nd Battalion Gloucestershire Regt. Attached CTC. Combined Training Centre (shared with other units).

18/05/1942 CTBA @ Cleethorpes. Ceased To Be Attached.

15/07/1942 Granted WTRP. Probably WTPP War Time Proficiency Pay

30/12/1942 Transfer to Sussex Regt and Embarks UK

18/01/1943 Disembark ME TOS xiv No.1 ITD Egypt. ME Middle East Forces (Egypt, Libya, Palestine). Taken On Strength. List X (iv) See general explanation of List X: X (ii) being All ranks evacuated on medical grounds (and the idea being that they would return to their unit of origin in due course); thus referred to soldiers awaiting transfer to a hospital, etc). See: https://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/abbreviations-in-service-records-uk-army-wwii-for-ref.57233/ )



05/04/1943 Posted 1 / 4 Essex Regt. from ITD. Infantry Training Depot.

17/11/1943 SOS MEF to CMF. Granted Africa Star. Above MEF and CMF is Central Mediterranean Forces – in Italy & Balkans.

23/01/1944 Posted 5 Indian Infantry Brigade Recce Group. X (x)

30/01/1944 MIA X (vi) . Missing in Action. (Note on Medical pg. 16 states Shrapnel left leg)

07/02/1944 Located 98 General Hospital (Wounded in Action). Posted X (vi). See earlier note on hospital.

03/04/1944 Discharged to ‘B’ T. Camp. T for Transit.

19/04/1944 Posted 5 Indian Infantry Brigade Recce Squadron.

Undated Awarded 8th Army clasp on Africa Star.

Sheet pg. 12b

23/12/1944 Posted 198 Transit Camp X (iv). Proceeded to 197 Transit Camp en route 1 / 4 Essex Regt.

30/12/1944 Posted 2 CRU X (iv). Corps Reinforcement Unit

19/01/1945 Compulsory Transfer to Gordon Highlanders and posted 1 London Scottish. Different regiments?

15/01/1945 Reclassified Scale D CL? DA? No idea.

10/10/1945 LIAP left unit 7/10/1945 CTBE ? CTBE Cease To Be Entitled. LIAP Leave In Advance Python (demobilisation).

19/11/1945 Rejoined unit entitled to Medical Allowance wef. Week ending from.

11/02/1946 Posted HQ 56 (London) Division HQ.

03/09/1946 Posted X (iv a) wef. Unit disbanded.

24/09/1946 SOS CMF to UK Python. Medical Allowance ceases. SOS Struck Off Strength.

24/09/1946 Ex os CMF TOS this unit 8 HHB. SOS this unit and ‘B’ Coy on 13/11/1946. Proceeding for release Class ‘A’. Posted Y List on 14/11/1946. Infantry Holding battalion or Highlanders Holding Battalion. Taken On Strength. Y list was and is the means of accounting for personnel who are not where they were initially posted: - in hospital, at reinforcement or holding units, being taken on or struck off strength, transferred to other units. From: https://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/info-on-y-list-please.61446

Sheet pg. 13

22/02/1947 Released Class ‘Z’ Reserve. (When a soldier was demobilised, he was first transferred to Class Z. From: Class Z - Class A - X Code : X (viii) - British Army - WWII )

Sheet pg.24 (Disciplinary Record)

30/12/1943 ‘Neglect to the prejudice of good order military discipline in a permitting a ??? of a book issued to him for his use 23/11 to become unserviceable. 5 days CB. Confined Barracks. Posted 1 / 4 Essex Regt.

06/08/1944 ‘Neglect to the prejudice of good order military discipline… At approx.. 1900hrs 6/8/1944 … attempted to leave camp without authority. 7 days CB. Confined Barracks. Posted 5 Indian Infantry Brigade Recce Squadron.

Note in each case the same NCO is named.

Items to keep in view:

1) WW2 in Europe ended 8/5/1945, although occupation duties and conflicts continued e.g. Greece. Units were prepared to go to the Far East, for a return to Malaya, before that was mainly cancelled with VJ-Day 15/8/1945.

2) The army experienced severe shortages of infantry soldiers in Italy, this became worse after D-Day. Whole units were disbanded, especially of no longer required AA units. Soldiers went where the army needed them.

 

davidbfpo

Your entry re Med Allowance 19/11/45

It’s a common service record entry for men returning to Italy after LIAP & Phython and means “Mediterranean Allowance”. Nothing to do with Medical matters.

Steve

 

Thanks davidbfpo for this.
On initial read it does seem strange why they would put exposed to CW agent in red on his record. Could he have been used in training to test out new equipment or CW drills? If indeed it does refer to a Chemical Warfare agent.
The 7 days missing in action explanation earlier from Frank seems plausible, missing in the system and I imagine a lot of casualties rolling into the hospitals before being properly accounted for and info then relayed to relevant units
So I take it he was back with the 5 Indian brigade recce group from April until December them back with the 1/4 Essex again. Was the Indian brigade recce disbanded then.
Why would he be transferred to the Gordon Highlanders. Would this have been to make up the numbers. Was transferring between units common for non regular soldiers or could you ask to be transferred.

 

The CW exposure is unusual. I am reasonably sure CS gas was available in WW2, IRRC it had been used in the police in the USA and it is still used in recruit training - seen in RCMP basic training. No idea, if exposure was part of UK basic training in WW2, others may know.

Earlier posts indicate 5 Indian recce was an ad hoc formation, so it could have gone. Or 1/4 Essex needed him back or recce wanted him gone.

As I wrote earlier: The army experienced severe shortages of infantry soldiers in Italy, this became worse after D-Day. Whole units were disbanded, especially of no longer required AA units. Soldiers went where the army needed them. Several British divisions were withdrawn from Italy for D-Day (June 1944) and reinforcements from the UK were probably unlikely by January 1945.

Very unlikely his move was at his request.

Sometimes you can find pointers to the shortage of soldiers in units, here, in books or online. You would have to work out which battalion of the The Gordon Highlanders was involved.

 

I have a little more on the 1/4th Essex spell, only I've been too busy to go through the record this week.

That said, although the required page is missing in battalion's battle casualty book, I am fairly sure that Irwin was with C-Company before he moved to 5 Ind Inf Bde Recce.

Photos (which I am not able to post here) and the names on the disciplinary record support this. He joined the battalion, I believe the records say, 'South of Tunis' (5/4/43) on the very eve of the Battle of Wadi Akarit, and he would also have fought at Djebel Garci before helping to 'mop up' around Medjez el Bab.

More at the weekend.

 

The Gordon Highlanders were the regular parent regiment for 1 London Scottish. They were part of 167 Infantry Brigade, 56th Division at this time.

 

Looks like a number of Essex Regiment men were posted in at the same time (this was done to give them a few comrades from their parent regiment).

Pte. Irwin went to C Company.

 

Thanks Gary, do you know if these men attached to the 1 London Scottish to cover previous losses? As previously stated reinforcements in Italy were non existent due to the Normandy landings and the ongoing campaign in Western Europe. Manpower in Italy had to do with what they had. Do you know where the 1 London Scottish went to up until the end of the war on Italy and we're these manpower transfers necessary for an ongoing push? Also does anyone know if all these Essex fellas are from throughout the regiment or from specific units eg 5 Indian infantry brigade recce?

 

Yes, most of the British infantry battalions in Italy had been forced to reduce to a three-company basis in the autumn of 1944. In early 1945, the reinforcement position was such that they could begin to return to a four-company basis. This was for the final offensive in Italy in April 1945.

I don't think it is entirely correct to say no reinforcements were being sent to Italy from the UK, as I know some that were. Any infantry reinforcements already in Italy would be assigned to whichever unit needed them. They were not going to send Essex Regiment men back to NWE just because there were no Essex Regiment battalions in Italy. I would probably think all of these Essex Regiment reinforcements were those previously wounded or ill and who had remained in the Mediterranean theatre.

 

Neglect to the prejudice of good order & military discipline in permitting a pair of boots issued to him for his own use value 23/11 to become unserviceable.

Punishment Awarded by Major (later Major General) Beckett—who commanded C-Coy. Witnesses: Sergeant Bacon (also C-Coy), CQMS Wynn (C-Coy) and Cpl Disdon(?) (Unknown).

Interesting that the same Sgt Bacon later witnessed the second offence, this time while with 5 Ind Inf Recce.Private Stringer, from the document posted by Gary Tankard was also C-Coy 1/4th Essex before being attached to C-Coy, the London Scottish.

I wonder whether a whole platoon was simply transferred first to the Recce and then, when the Recce was no longer required, to the London Scottish? Can anybody decipher the signature of the major commanding 5 Ind Inf Bde Recce who awarded the second punishment?

 

One anomaly from page 14:



These dates and locations look all wrong.

Sicily?

Did the London Scottish pass through Sicily—perhaps the clerk made an assumption too many?

It does at least record his injury from Italy: shrapnel in the left leg.

 

Yes, London Scottish were then part of 168 Brigade. This was attached to the 50th Infantry Division for the Sicily campaign.

 

5th Indian Infantry Brigade were disbanded on 24th October, as the brigade prepared to move to Greece. It says the personnel returned to their original unit, but who knows?

 

I am away from my files—do you have the Appendix G.4 referenced in that diary entry for 24/10?

 

I do, but it is the Admin Order for the move, nothing on the Recce Squadron disbandment.