PoW Camp 20 Bickham Camp - Discrepancy

Discussion in 'UK PoW Camps' started by Martin Richards, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Well-Known Member

    In my original research i loacted a Camp 20 Bixham as at SX 504 653.

    In my subsequent research i found the War Diary WO 166/17821 details the move of Camp 20 from Bramham Park to Abbostsfield House Tavistock.

    This place is now called Abbotsfield Hall Nursing Home location SX 46909 73690

    However, I have have been going through a database Archaelogical Data Services https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archsearch/record?titleId=55708
    And its cross link to Defence of Britian Database

    It is listed Bickham Camp Roborough Down Yelverton at SX 504 653


    The SX 504 location is actually heath land that i have visited at its very simalr to Seatley Plain but there is nothing to see except for what looks like the entrance road.

    So, can any one help as to if Camp 20 is the Heathland Site or the Hall/ Nursing Home thats is about 10 miles away by raod
     
  2. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

  3. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

  4. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Well-Known Member

    Thanks your your reply and yes I was aware of the past usaged of Abbotsfield.
    The War Diary says that the PoW Camp was moved from Bramham to Abbostfield late May 1945 with the movemnt order dated 17May45.
    So it sort of implies that Bramham was closed around the end of May as part of the camp closure programmes and that they moved south after the US had moved out of Abbotsfield.
    WO 166/17821 PoW Camp 20 Bramham Park | PoW Camp 20 Bramham Park War Diary

    The question is though was the site at Roborough Down Yelverton at SX 504 653 also used as another PoW Camp 20 ?
    or is it simply wrong?
     
  5. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Surely the answer is both. Doesn't the movement order state:

    Issue No. 1, Order dated 17 May 1975 - 20 POW Camp will move from Bramham Camp to ABBOTSFIELD HOUSE, Tavistock between 17 and 23 May 1945.

    Issue No. 2, Order dated 23 May 1945 - 20 POW Camp will move to new location at Bickham 935875 (Sheet 137). The advance party will move to Bickham on Saturday 26 May 1945, leaving Abbotsfield House at 1000hrs.

    Map ref 935875 is here which concurs with SX 504 653
    Google Maps
     
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  6. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Well-Known Member

    Thank you and you have brought in another item - how do you translate the old WW2 Mil Map to either a Lat/Long and or modern OS?
    The current UK Mil Maps that use a translation actaully have a straight 100Km East West Shift
     
  7. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

  8. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Thinking about this, I know from the research I did for my dissertation that from the end of 1944 many camps changed in the way they were organised in that they became hostels rather than enclosed and guarded camps and their occupants dispersed across a wide area on farms or building sites often only returning to the camp between assignments to farmers etc. The camp administration changed from prison management (security , feeding etc) to running a large dispersed labour pool dealing with County War Agricultural Committees, Labour Exchanges and farm managers etc. In these circumstances might it not be possible that a part of the camp administration remained at Abbotsfield House dealing with labour pool administrative issues and 20 became spread across two locations with the hostel facilities at Bicksfield ? This would explain the double reference - for the WO 20 would be where the centre of administration was located but for local Archaelogical Data Services it would be where the bulk of buildings were set up.
     
  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    The letter on your website suggests to me that the main camp office was at Bickham.
    WO 166-17821 PoW Camp 20 Bramham Park-26.JPG
    Other documents you have confirm:
    "HQ Staff and remainder of Guard Coy will move to new location"
    "Orderly Room files and documents, QM and Coy stores will be packed ready to move"
    "Delivery of tents for German PWs direct to the compound" so presumably no substantial buildings at Bickham.
     
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  10. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    I find this post confusing. Obviously if Bickham was to be the new location for POW accommodation there would be no buildings there to start with
     
  11. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Not sure I said that there were any buildings - presumably there wasn't, which is why they sent down a load of tents?
    WO 166-17821 PoW Camp 20 Bramham Park-21.JPG
     
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  12. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    You said
    Delivery of tents for German PWs direct to the compound" so presumably no substantial buildings at Bickham.

    And given the scenario I suggested you wouldn't expect any which is why I found your post confusing
     
  13. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Looking at the dates on the movement orders, I rather think that Abbotsfield House is a bit of a red herring and was merely a temporary stop over on the move from Yorkshire to Devon.
    For several years I lived at Roborough. The location of the Camp you have identified would seem to be in the vicinity of Bickham House. Bickham House's address is given variously as Buckland Monachorum, Milton Combe or Roborough.
    From: Every prisoner of war camp in the UK mapped and listed we have: upload_2020-2-22_23-48-47.png
    Milton Combe ties in with your archaeology link in #1 and the fact the camp was tented accommodation also ties in with the information that the camp has been destroyed.

    Tim
     
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  14. Martin Richards

    Martin Richards Well-Known Member

    Okay and thanks every one for help confirming the location.
    The site when i visted in the Summer was actually a disapointment.
    It looks as I said at the start very simlar to PoW Camp 65 Setley Plain in that although the site has been cleared the outline remains.
    At the Bickham site you have the same type of Plain / moreland but all I found there was the remains of what was an entrace and a few bits of rubble.

    My count now is about 220 sites visited of which I have 145 as confirmed and it s what makes this reasearch so interesting.
    Out of the non confirmed i think about 20 are close but not enough evidance.

    My photos for the Camp 20 Bickham site are at: PoW Camp 20 Bickham

    My own project is as part of an MA in Photography and the plan is that i will be putting on an exhibition during the summer as welll as launching a website showing what these sites look like now - or at least for the confimed sites.

    Not sure if any one has come across this source yet: Defence of Britain Archive Defence of Britain Archive
    It has helped me to tag a few more sites as confirmed as well as find more smaller hostels
     
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  15. Greg Way

    Greg Way Member

    Can anybody identify this badge found at the abovementioned site. Austrian perhaps.
     

    Attached Files:

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