Post Traumatic Stress

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by Trincomalee, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. peaceful

    peaceful Senior Member

    1943 or 44 my brother (aged 20, on a Fleet escort carrier) came home on leave after an arctic convoy; my mother and I did not know what was wrong with him, he could not sit still, he lit cigarettes and forgot them, or put them out and lit another, he had difficulty sitting long enough to eat a meal, he had terrible nightmares (his bedroom was next to mine) ....... we did not know if he would be able to go back.
    When my father came home for a long weekend, after my brother had gone back, he explained that this was a reaction to prolonged stress; that the aircraft maintenance crew had little or no sleep for days at a time because the aircraft had to be serviced as soon as landed, ready to take off again, and accepting the deaths of pilots of missing aircraft.
    Would this now be accepted as PTSD? He had to cope, and did, but I am sure it impacted on the rest of his life.

    Edna
    Hello Edna,

    Interesting, thanks for adding your brother's reaction.

    It's impossible to do an armchair diagnosis.
    I am interested in what your observations of him were when he was finally released.

    peaceful
    Chrissie
     
  2. beaufort

    beaufort Junior Member

    I do appreciate all view points expressed because you can teach an old doggie new tricks.

    I must say that I cringe when I see the label "victim" used. I have never seen this terminology used in any mental health or physical health issue.
    I would never call any patient victim or treat them as if they were. These military persons have been brave warriors on the battlefield, and when they return home are reduced to victims?
    They are not victims, they are victors. Victim implies powerlessness and a person to be pitied. No wonder there is a stigma attached that is tripping up a lot of folks.peaceful
    Chrissie

    No, I can't agree with you on this.

    Firstly, not all those in the battle zone are "brave warriors" - that's the kind of romantic politically-correct slush that infuriates many who were there. My father fought right through WW2 and loathed the casual use of words like "brave" and "heroic".

    Secondly, the word victim is only pejorative if you want to make it so. It acknowledges that the person has suffered as a result of some experience (usually outside their control) such as a car accident, a plane crash or the enemy bombing them senseless! If you've seen the B&W footage of the battle-fatigued men returned to US hospitals for psychiatric treatment at the end of WW2, I can't believe you would think the word 'victim' inappropriate - and there is no question that - at that stage - they were helpless and needed professional intervention. The word "victim" only contributes to stigma if it is regarded as an unchanging 'status'. My Vietnam Vet. friend says he has been a victim, and is now a survivor.

    As to what you call your "patients", that's a matter for you, but many would argue that word is itself a stigmatizing term, implying helplessness, infantilization and conformity to the 'sick role', which is why it's use has been called into question, and alternatives such as 'client' are bandied about. I totally disagree with such a view. Let's call a spade a spade!
     
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  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  4. Ednamay

    Ednamay wanderer

    Hello Edna,

    Interesting, thanks for adding your brother's reaction.

    It's impossible to do an armchair diagnosis.
    I am interested in what your observations of him were when he was finally released.

    peaceful
    Chrissie

    As he was full time FAA service, he was mostly at sea where I gather he coped, as they all did, so I saw little of him. He was never the relaxed, practical-joker, girl-friendly lad he once was, took life more seriously, I don't know if he continued to have nightmares. He married in 1947, I think that helped him resettle, and he continued service to complete his time in 1954.

    Edna
     
  5. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    We were almost surrounded. We were there for four days, and we spent two days without eating. No water, no food, nothing. We managed to maintain our positions. We had sixty-eight casualties and hundred or so wounded. When Carpiquet was finished, we had taken the airfield and all of that. I said to myself, "Even if the war lasts ten years, I won’t be killed." It could never be as bad as that, it was dreadful. It was never as bad as that. We had some tough battles but nothing like Carpiquet. We had our first rest period after 39 days.

    It found it hard my entire life, since I never forgot my friends who died. I think about them every day. I was the one of the eldest. I had young men who were 18, 19, 20, 21 years old. When I lost one of my men, it was as if I had lost one of my own children. I returned after 40 years. I cried when I saw the beach where we had landed, I asked myself a lot of questions. How did I manage to get through that? I visited the small cemetery at Bény-sur-Mer. I saw the names of my men who died. I thought to myself, "How can you have been sleeping here for 40 years, but I am still standing?" Once I returned to civilian life, I felt destitute and alone. All of my friends from before were either married or doing their own thing, they had their own lives now. It was hard. Thank goodness that I had a wife who helped me a lot because I don’t know what would have happened to me. It was as hard as the war. Because mentally, I felt disoriented. I had a wife who helped me a great deal and I adore her, I still do.

    Louis Antoine Tremblay
    Le Régiment de la Chaudière
     
  6. 2054172

    2054172 Junior Member

    One does not have to be involved in a war to have PTSD, suffering from it my self after, many accidents related to work, the last a trust dropping from a crane onto my head put my mental state over the edge. Though I was not afraid to ask for help, it was a long haul to deal with it....can a person ever be totally cured? My answer would be no from experience.
     
  7. peaceful

    peaceful Senior Member

    I was raised by an ex RAF father who came out of WWII with post traumatic stress disorder. I lived the hell he went through daily. I was on the receiving end of his short temper, shouting, unpredictible behaviour and more that I don't want to speak about. The perplexing part as a child , even at a young age , was that I knew he was a good man and I somehow understood. Believe me I don't romantacize the war or use politically correct slush and I especially don't need to look at B & W footage. I found my father to be brave. However, if it upsets some to use this adjective broadly, I will accept this and apply it only to my dad and the many other veterans I have had the privilege to know personally.

    As a mental health nurse in Canada, I do not stand alone in being adverse to the term "victim" as applied to a patient with PTSD, just as someone with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia would never be called a victim. It is looked at as labeling the person (not something I invented, but something I agree to). I am also adverse to the word victim, because as I have said, experience PTSD myself and don't want to be called a victim.

    I'm always happy to hear all opinions because people have different points of view depending on their life experiences. If we all thought the same it would be a very boring world. Although I think it's just fine to say one disagrees, it is my point of view that one should not tell a person "I can't believe you would think". No worries, it's just my irritability coming out.

    Just a parting comment: the word "client" is not used anymore. Persons are now called "health care consumers". Mental illness has been replaced with "significant mental health issues" until these become backward thinking terms sometime soon.

    Happy day!
    peaceful
     
  8. peaceful

    peaceful Senior Member

    Hi 2054172

    Thanks for your 2nd post of relating a very personal experience. I hope you continue to improve and have a bright future.

    peaceful
    a Kitchener, ON gal
     
  9. Alanst500

    Alanst500 Senior Member

    I was asked to look after Joe (corporal) he had his bottom set of teeth embedded in his flack jacket the rest of his face was was a mess his left foot was hanging on by his gaiters, this happened in 1972/3 can not remember exact date but i still see his teeth on his flack jacket only had nightmares for 3 weeks, i don't have PTSD just good and bad memories
     
  10. sebfrench76

    sebfrench76 Senior Member

  11. peaceful

    peaceful Senior Member

    Found this.Dated 1948.Sorry if already posted,i read the entire thread but cannot find this link.
    Have your time,quite long docu,but these guys were WW2 vets...and their accounts are really moving.

    Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in Soldiers: WW2 Treatment Documentary - Let There Be Light (1948) - YouTube

    Thanks for posting this sebfrench76.

    Just watched this 40 min film. Found it a good record of the treatment with sodium amytal interesting, mainlined, not by I.V.drip. & not with informed consent. The cases where things went bad with this drug were not exposed in this film which was produced for the public and those diagnosed. They were limited by what was available at the time. I think the psychiatrist was very skilled.
    The treatment of PTSD today is much different. Thanks again

    Chrissie
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  13. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen

    If the truth be known, it would not surprise me at all to learn that similar statistics could have been produced when the troops came home in WW2.

    What I am trying to say is that all who served for any length of time must have been affected by their experiences and any weakness in character would have been more likely to have been exposed after they returned.

    Just a thought..........

    Ron
     
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  14. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    RAMC report:

    Second World War
    A retrospective War Office report estimated that between 5% and 30% of all sick and wounded evacuated from battle areas in all theatres during the Second World War were psychiatric casualties and that this figure depended largely on the type of warfare fought. In the retreat to Dunkirk, it was calculated that combat stress accounted for 10% of admissions to regimental aid posts (Phillips, 1944: 6). In view of the large numbers of servicemen admitted to psychiatric wards once they had returned to the UK, this figure may understate the true incidence of psychological disorders (Sargent & Slater, 1940). It was argued that the fluid campaign in the Western Desert in 1940-1941 produced low rates (sometimes only 2%), while fighting in north-west Europe, akin to trench warfare, led to far higher figures (War Office, 1951: 1). In fact, detailed reports from the Western Desert reveal that the percentages were considerably higher than claimed (Table 3). Between July and September 1943 psychiatric casualties and total battle casualties were correlated at a significant level (Spearman's ρ=1.0, P=<0.001). In part, these variations can be explained by the different phases of battle, as Major Craigie had observed that the incidence of psychiatric casualties in the desert during 1942 depended “to some extent on the nature of the action itself — for instance, it is likely to be higher during unsuccessful, purely defensive or unduly prolonged actions” (Craigie, n.d.: 1).








    The Normandy offensive
    In the Normandy campaign, the 21st Army Group encountered such intense German resistance during July 1944 that it tested the endurance of even seasoned troops. Planners had anticipated psychiatric casualties of the order of 10-30% and, although the recorded rate fell within this range, it caused “ considerable anxiety amongst certain officers, some of whom believed that the psychiatric problem would be negligible” (Main, 1944: 2). During the first 16 days of the campaign, psychiatric casualties in 8 Corps varied considerably. The overall rate was 14.6%, while the three divisions recorded rates of 21%, 11.6% and 14.7% (Phillips, 1944: 12-13). The second battle, a fast-moving armoured thrust lasting only 5 days, led to a greatly reduced the Corps' rate of 11.6%. The third battle, in which British troops encountered severe opposition, saw an increase to 18%, although great variations occurred between units. These high percentages were also a function of widespread battle fatigue in soliders who had already fought in North Africa, Sicily and Italy, and, as a War Office report concluded, “a number of men who broke down were experienced veterans with excellent past records” (War Office, 1951: 7). Although some planners believed that the battle exhaustion crisis had passed, heavy fighting involving the 1 Canadian Army north of Falaise during August produced even higher rates of psychiatric casualties (Copp, 1997: 150). It became clear that the only effective way to reduce battle exhaustion levels was to lower the intensity and duration of combat.




    Trauma

    The relationship between physical and psychological trauma is a complex one. Advances in medical science have progressively reduced the proportion of troops who die from their injuries, the rate falling from 20% in the Crimean War to 6.1% in the First World War, 4.5% in the Second World War and 2.5% in Korea (Beebe & DeBakey, 1952: 77). Improved survival rates may have increased the number of potential psychiatric casualties and allowed the focus of attention to move towards psychological issues. Alternatively, wounds could serve as a protector against post-combat syndromes. Physicians during the First World War commented that soldiers injured in battle were less likely to suffer from shell shock and that many men with this disorder had not been wounded.
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    The Normandy offensive
    In the Normandy campaign, the 21st Army Group encountered such intense German resistance during July 1944 that it tested the endurance of even seasoned troops. Planners had anticipated psychiatric casualties of the order of 10-30% and, although the recorded rate fell within this range, it caused “ considerable anxiety amongst certain officers, some of whom believed that the psychiatric problem would be negligible” (Main, 1944: 2). During the first 16 days of the campaign, psychiatric casualties in 8 Corps varied considerably. The overall rate was 14.6%, while the three divisions recorded rates of 21%, 11.6% and 14.7% (Phillips, 1944: 12-13). The second battle, a fast-moving armoured thrust lasting only 5 days, led to a greatly reduced the Corps' rate of 11.6%. The third battle, in which British troops encountered severe opposition, saw an increase to 18%, although great variations occurred between units. These high percentages were also a function of widespread battle fatigue in soliders who had already fought in North Africa, Sicily and Italy, and, as a War Office report concluded, “a number of men who broke down were experienced veterans with excellent past records” (War Office, 1951: 7). Although some planners believed that the battle exhaustion crisis had passed, heavy fighting involving the 1 Canadian Army north of Falaise during August produced even higher rates of psychiatric casualties (Copp, 1997: 150). It became clear that the only effective way to reduce battle exhaustion levels was to lower the intensity and duration of combat.

    Carrying that fight while battling dysentery could only have accelerated the rates of battle exhaustion.

    Quote from George Blackburn, around the same period:

    "His recall of one man's dysentery-induced expulsion aroused my own memories of the convulsive cramps and feverish, shuddering ague brought on by that damnable scourge that struck the Canadian Army around Verrieres before the drive down the Falaise road began, which worsened as time went on to the point where it came close to putting some units out of action when supplies of medicine to treat it ran out. Yet dysentery, if mentioned at all by historians, is touched on only in passing, as though of no more consequence than some minor irritating inconvenience like lice or mosquitoes."
     
  16. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Battle Exhaustion In WW II: Army, Part 19 | Legion Magazine


    Several senior officers had attempted to change Montgomery's mind about his insistence on using 'experienced troops' pointing out they were tired, resentful that he had changed commanders and replaced them with his 'favoured sons'. Booed by troops on a visit. Even when units believed their own hype and refused to train (we have been there) many battalion commanders were unhappy at the level of training, getting off boats and waterproofing and more of the same. Horrocks pointed out that very little tank and infantry cooperation training had taken place in close country but in the open training areas. Staff College Camberley - notes, what is odd is the claim -Montgomery that his plan to hold with the left whilst the Americans raced around in a right hook. This implies he planned for a long static battle! These forms of contact are costly in casualties a warning had been flagged up about this form of battle by the quartermaster general (shortage of suitable manpower). The Americans were equally surprised by the claim. The difference between then and now is a case of denial, we are prepared now to admit something that has existed as long as warfare. Some of today's long service soldiers will have more active service time in than many past serving people. The intensity of conflict from past records show less fatigue casualties, the long periods of patrolling counter insurgency has it's own torments.


    Monty’s principle of including experienced formations and units in the invasion
    force was unsound; much better results would have been achieved if fresh
    formations, available in England, had been used in their place…I noticed on
    several occasions the differences in dash between formations which had been
    fighting a long time and those who were fresh.

    Major-General G.P.B. “Pip” Roberts
    General Officer Commanding
    11 Armoured Division




    Archives &mdash; Defence Academy of the United Kingdom
     
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  18. spider

    spider Very Senior Member

    "weakness in character" often a strength can be a weakness and visa-versa.....yin and yang

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Spider

    Naughty !.............

    Where did I say:
    Originally Posted by Ron Goldstein [​IMG]
    "weakness in character" often a strength can be a weakness and visa-versa.....yin and yang



    Didn't remember saying anything about Yin & Yang, never having met these gentlemen.

    What I actually said in post #453 was:

    Owen

    If the truth be known, it would not surprise me at all to learn that similar statistics could have been produced when the troops came home in WW2.

    What I am trying to say is that all who served for any length of time must have been affected by their experiences and any weakness in character would have been more likely to have been exposed after they returned.

    Just a thought..........

    Ron
     
  20. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Owen

    If the truth be known, it would not surprise me at all to learn that similar statistics could have been produced when the troops came home in WW2.

    What I am trying to say is that all who served for any length of time must have been affected by their experiences and any weakness in character would have been more likely to have been exposed after they returned.

    Just a thought..........

    Ron

    This thread seems to have been getting some action of late, and the above quote says quite a lot.
     

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