Personal cameras in the UK or Germany in the 1940s?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Chris C, Apr 28, 2022.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    I got my postwar photos of 2nd Division in ~1949 in the mail today. I was just wondering what sort of camera would they have likely been taken with? The prints are very small - the images are 2" (5cm) to a side with a little bit of a border around them.
     
  2. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Sounds like the photos are contact printed directly from the negatives. There were many medium format cameras from the 1930s and earlier available. Best starting point is to try to identify the film format from the negative size and then look at popular cameras available in that format. Although part of the images may be masked out or cropped even further by the contact printing frame used.

    Could be a 127 format camera like the folding Kodak Vest series. A 127 negative is 4cm x 6.5cm in size.

    120 was/is a slightly larger format that can be masked for sizes such as 6cm x 4.5 cm, 6cm x 6cm, or 6x7cm.

    116 film was popular also, with a larger image size at 6.5cm x 11cm.

    Lee
     
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  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Any numbers showing around the edge? (Unlikely) Or what looks like handwritten text? (Autographic, quite popular).
    Are they crisp with nice sharp edges under a magnifying glass, or a bit blurry? That might indicate 'type' of camera.

    If you measure them precisely as Lee says, edge-to-edge and actual image size, I've definitely got a few contemporary examples of each format camera.
    The ratio of edge to edge possibly the most informative of format.

    Folders were most popular with British troops as they weren't supposed to carry cameras at all and they could be easily hidden (Not sure if rules were different with Commonwealth, assuming not). VPKs the most common type, Ensign Midgets still widely in use (tiny).

    (There's another thread on WW2 Cameras. WW2Talk - Cameras in WW2 )
     
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  4. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Why do you ask about cameras in the UK ? Weren't the photos most likely taken and developed in post-war Germany ?
     
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  5. Reid

    Reid Historian & Architectural Photographer

    I have a Kodak Junior 620 which shoots 6x9cm images on 120 film (other sizes available on this film: 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 or 6x17).

    This camera was owned by an Australian in the 2nd AIF who fought in North Africa and PNG.

    It's a lovely camera and works perfectly - these negs were contact printed, and given the sharpness of the lens, even these small images would be amazing.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    True but I was assuming that the camera would have been British made. Now that you pose the question - you're right, it might not have been!
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I'm sure this is what my Dad bought whilst serving with the RAF in Germany in early 50s.
    Still using it in the 70s.



    Agfa Synchro Box 600
     
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  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Cameras in the UK were classed as 'Luxury Goods' and subject to duty and purchase tax from the 1940s through to the 1970s. During that period, travellers were advised to take their purchase receipt with them when travelling abroad in order to get it back to the UK. Plenty of cameras in Germany though (they'd had five years to steal them all over Europe) and they could be swapped during the immediate post-war period for a packet of cigarettes or a couple of bars of chocolate.
     
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  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Appreciate it's a joke, but Germans didn't really need to steal cameras.
    Unlike most other armies, a blind eye was often turned to their unofficial use (I even have a feeling I've read it was sometimes encouraged, but not certain so won't stand by that), and the country had caught the photography bug harder than most. Billys and Karats abounded.

    Immediately postwar I believe (?) their civilian ownership or use was banned by the occupation authorities, so the market was awash with often quality devices that could be turned into much-needed cash.
    Certainly a lot of current documented stupid-money old Leicas that were 'picked up in Berlin', whether black market or gizzits.
    I suppose the Sovs hold the crown for wartime camera grabs. All those Prakticas & later Zenits that sold so well in the coming decades built in captured Eastern factories or created using 'second hand' machinery and knowledge.


    Would be interesting to know the army by army rules on private cameras for certain.
    Mostly banned, obviously, but Germany seems to have a larger heap of private 'in service' images beyond PK work, and shots of their troops with little civvie cameras appear reasonably common.
     
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  10. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    The prints are 55mm square (possibly a partial mm off). Borders about 2mm on a side within that size.

    I had forgotten that the back of the paper has some sort of watermark - "Agfa-Lupex". Well, that at least indicates they were printed in Germany. No numbers or anything like that.
     
  11. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

  12. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I hold copies of approximately 200 photos from family connections of men who served in WW2. Very few are from 1939/40. A few officers had cameras often bought on pre-war holiday. Coincidentally letters are found in similar proportions.
    !940 revealed very little in the post so one assumes that there were few materials available and with possible imminent invasion security was tight. The public were suspicious of enemy spies.
    1941/42 photos are small in number and mostly official photos of officers or men on courses.
    It was not until the end of hostilities in Tunisia that photography really took off. With the fall of Tunis everyone seemed to be buying reputable brands and swapping cameras between all ranks. This theatre was also where for many, the Americans were first encountered. Italy produced many photos, even in the ranks of men enclosed on the Anzio Beachhead. Once they broke free personal photographs became fairly common so one assumes that they were able to get them developed and printed by Italians. Some were obvious Kodak type camera sized films but many were more in the line of small "proofs" samples sold for customers to select the pictures that they wanted enlarged. Approved local photographers were listed on some Part 2 Orders. Palestine was prolific with many medium and large group photos which I put down to the soldiers being based in or near RAF bases where they no doubt had photographic equipment, labs and materials available in quantity and time on their hands to visit sites and take photos. I suspect that much depended upon which units the amateur photographers served in.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
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  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Sounds like 'Medium Format' 120/620* film contacts to me. (Image size doesn't necessarily exactly match format size due to camera/focussing variables. Ratios the best indicator.)
    Incredibly popular film format, so you'll never know exactly what camera took it without further info (A guess could be made, at least on quality, DoF etc., by someone with a magnifying glass who's taken & developed more than a few pics with old cameras, but a guess it would be). Could be anything from a Box to some rather sophisticated TLRs.

    So in answer to the original '40s Cameras' question, Living Image has as good a rough selection of 30s/40s 'average' cameras as any.
    (Not all here are 120 format, though many are.)
    Cameras of 1930s era. Vintage film Cameras


    *Same film, but also different. :unsure:
     
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  14. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

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  15. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Thanks all! Even if the exact camera is not identifiable, I've learned a lot :)
     
  16. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    120 6cm x 6cm format film.

    As the contact prints have white borders then the negatives have been held in a contact printing frame which will crop a couple of millimetres off each side. They were a pain in the backside to use, much easier to contact print under plain glass.
     
  17. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    "The Photo-Amateur's Pocketbook 1955" published by Focal Press gives these pages, so not 1940's, but close....
    Agfa paper.jpg
    Film sizes.jpg
    How Good.jpg
     
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  18. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    A list of roll film cameras from the same volume, 1955:

    Abbreviations

    Country of origin:

    A = Austria
    B = Britain
    CZ = Czechoslovakia
    F = France
    G = Germany
    I = Italy
    S = Switzerland
    SW = Sweden

    Shutters:

    E4 = Epsilon ( 4 speeds to 1/300 sec.)

    E8 = Epsilon ( 8 speeds to 1/300 sec.)

    FP = Focal Plane

    P = Pronto ( 4 speeds to 1/200 sec.)

    PS = Prontor S ( 8 speeds to 1/300 sec. )

    PSV = Prontor SV ( 8 speeds to 1/300 sec. )

    PSVS = Prontor SVS ( 8 speeds to 1/300 sec. )

    SC = Synchro-Compur ( 9 Speeds to 1/500 sec. )

    SCL = Synchro-Compur with light values ( 10 speeds to 1/500 sec.)

    Special Features:

    SR = single-lens reflex

    TR = twin-lens reflex

    CRF = coupled rangefinder

    RF = non-coupled rangefinder

    IL = interchangeable lenses

    PEX = photo-electric exposure meter

    BR = brilliant reflecting finder

    BX = box type camera

    X = synchronised

    XM = speed-synchronised for flash.

    RF 1.jpg RF 1.jpg RF 2.jpg RF 3.jpg RF 4.jpg RF 5.jpg RF 6.jpg RF 7.jpg
     
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  19. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    I heard the thing about it being encouraged as well.

    Bilder des Zweiten Weltkrieges: Als die Kamera zur Waffe wurde

    My grandfather took his camera to war, but had it before hostilities started so didn't need to steal anyone elses. He didn't come from a rich family, middling farm in Lower Saxony, not an officer but started as enlisted.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  20. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    From "Australasian Photo Review" for April 1942 ( found on "Trove" ):

    Screen Shot 2022-04-30 at 18.40.32.png

    " Control of Photography in Wartime" from the same issue:

    Screen Shot 2022-04-30 at 18.40.01.png

    Not quite a Leica:

    Screen Shot 2022-04-30 at 18.09.46.png
     
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