Overlord map references

Good morning, I'm a new member!

At the National Archive in Kew, I have seen the War Dairy for my father's Field Surgical Unit 47, that landed at Ver-sur-Mer, on Gold Beach in the evening of D-Day.

They set up in a location given by a map reference "Medical area 24. MR 915855 Map 45 " but this means nothing on the UK Ordnance Survey reference system. I consulted the National Archive and was given advice that was helpful and referred to the various map reference systems used in WW2 by Allied forces ( The grids used on the European Theatre of Operations ) These included for Normandy the "French Lambert Zone 1" but the above reference also means nothing on that system.

My father's War Diary gives several other map references of sites to which FSU47 moved in the next days and weeks, some of which give town and village names, such as, a month later, "Saint-Léger 863763" (I presume Saint-Léger-Dubosq, 15miles/24km east of Caen) I will be visiting Normandy this summer and would hope to find these sites. I've searched here but found nothing about such references, and I would be most grateful for advice on interpreting D-Day map references, and/or where I might find copies of the maps used in the Normandy campaign.

Thank you!
John Davies

 

Hi you can use echo delta for a general idea The "Coordinates Translator"

For 915855 you will want French Lambert Zone 1 with the prefix vT so vT915855. As they move east, if the starting number reset to start with a lower number change the prefix to vU

I've uploaded many of the original maps to Archives » Normandy War Guide which may help

To start you will want the Creully map 7E/5 - Creully - War Office Map (1:50,000)

You can also see some of the Normandy maps overlayed on Google maps here Map overlays » Normandy War Guide

 

Ah, so it is you we have to thank for those! Thank you so much! ...now can you do more for the U.S. areas and expand eastward a bit...

 

Hello John,
Welcome to the forum.
Some links to maps of the WW2 period can be found here: Topographic & Town/City Maps
Richard

 

Progress! Already the Coordinate converter has found me a site in the fields just outside Ver-sur-Mer! Thank you, PhilM! I'll pursue that further, and the other clues listed above.
Thank you all.

John

 

WOW! Just found, using the maps PhilM pointed me to, and Google Earth, the field where FSU 47 set up their tents on the night of 6/6/44, and my dad operated on 12 casualties. Also found the map that includes another site they used a month later, St.Leger-Dubosq 25kms East of Caen. Wonderful! Thank you!
John

 

I'm actively working on a revamp of the archive and mapping section of the site which will do that!

 

It's a thrill being able to convert these abstract numbers into such exact locations.

 

Be very careful of the Coordinate Converters: they can be a km or so out. Use them, if necessary, to derive the rough area only. Always use an original era map for the proper map reference.

Incidentally, when I saw the reference to St Leger and Ver sur Mer, I presumed it was the St Leger near Martragny (which is just a few miles inland from Ver sur Mer!......)

 

Occasionally that is true, but I suspect it is not the Coordinates Translators fault but the original coordinate input in the records. I have found occasionally the letter code for the square corrupted but the most common error in records was in giving place names, which was especially trying for American units. Pretty much anything labeled on one of the 1:25,000 or 1:50,000 maps commonly used could become a place name, usually with the spelling corrupted. In following the movements of the 90th Infantry Division for my next book, I found references were often made to localities, such as “Lithaire” as if they were individual towns because of how they appeared on maps. In this case, what was called “Lithaire” was actually the hamlet of La Martinerie in the commune of Lithaire. Even more confusing, the World War II commune of Lithaire is now merged into the modern commune of Montsenelle.

Another favorite was from the 357th Infantry on 19 June. Colonel Barth ordered the 2d Battalion to advance south from Canville-la-Rocque, cross the D903, and secure the high ground at "Dupreys". I spent the better part of a day trying to figure out where Dupreys was until I realized they were talking about "Le Hameau Dupré". As best I can tell the NCO writing in the Regimental S-3 Journal simply wrote it as he heard it...

 

Thank you for the warning on the translator's failings!

Of the two sites that it has found for me by Lat & Long, the first is outside Ver-sur-Mer, in a field, next to some farm outbuildings. When a Field Surgical Unit was just that, a highly mobile unit housed in tents, that is where I would expect it to be, on D-Day itself. Moreover, the War Diary says "Unit set up tents in a field – Medical area 24" and that "32 FDS [Field Dressing Station] & 48 FSU [Field Surgical Unit] working in the school" so that in a small village like Ver-sur-Mer there probably wasn't another building available to FSU47.

Conversely, a month later, Dad's unit was ordered to another site near Arromanche, where the theatre set up in a “loft”, described as “very satisfactory”. The map reference via the translator points to a large farm , almost a country house, outside the town that Google Earth shows like this:


Again on the evidence of the Dairy, if FSU47 was in a loft, it must have been stationed in buildings, so that the location tallies.

Also thank you, SDP for the lead to "St.Leger near Martragny". That is indeed nearer the landing beaches, but this movement was two months later, arriving 8/8/45. The War Diary describes it as St.Leger-Dubosq, which is the name of a church with half a dozen houses nearby, 25 kms east of Caen, over the Orne river. According to Hastings in "Overlord", the front nearest the coast had moved east to near the Dives river, with the Falaise Gap to the south. He describes Operation Totalise against that encirclement as being launched on the 7th August, so that stationing an FSU there would be appropriate as nearer the fighting than the other St.Leger.
I'll be grateful if you experts on the Normandy campaign would correct me!

John

 

Hello John, I read your post with some interest. I think I can answer your query. My late father served with 35 FDS, and landed on Gold King Red on D-Day at 9am. He was part of an Advanced Surgical Centre/Med team just off the beach under the overall command of 32 FDS. Here’s a map from the small but excellent Gold musuem in Ver sur Mer which specifically locates area 24. This is now adjacent to the British Normandy Memorial- see Google map with locations. The school base (Ecole des Filles) is nearby-now a community centre. There’s a lot more from years of my research if interested. I'll need to check if 35 FDS subsequently worked with 47 FSU. There is definitely a pattern of med units working in tandem, such as 35 and 32 FDS, and 3 &10 CSS, who frequently feature in the War Diary of 35 FDS.

A quick check of my records sadly suggest that 35 FDS worked with 43 & 49 FSU and 7 FTU across NW Europe after D-Day

 

So cool! Thanks for sharing.

 

Gosh, Lindap, that is enormously helpful!
The map of Ver-sur-Mer and the various medical areas will pin point where FSU 47 were. It's hand drawn! Is that your copy from an original? The organisation of Overlord was so all encompassing that a hand drawn map surprises me!

I made notes of the FSU 47 War Diary - another time I would photograph it! My father told me (one of the few things he told me about his war) that after four days there was no work for them, so he signalled to ask where they should go. HQ took another five days to send a move order, and when he asked why the delay, HQ said they didn't expect the unit to survive. Anyway, on the 17th they moved from V-s-M to "86 General Hospital @ “LA DELIVERANCE” MR 032806 with 48 FSU, 24 FTU (Field Transfusion Unit)".
From there on the 6th July they were moved to ARROMANCHE LES BAINS 847855, and from there on the 16th to ASNELLE to join 25 FDS. On the 8th August they were ordered with 24 FDS to St.LEGER 863763, and on the 24th to an "Ambulance staging post CAEN-ATICAS and at IFS village" If any of these locations coincide with those of FDS 35, please tell me! And if anyone can translate "Caen-ATICAS" or "IFS", I'll be most grateful

I think that "La Deliverance" might be "Douvre-le-Deliverande" a village much nearer the Orme river, and that "St.Leger" is "St.Leger-Dubosc" a tiny hamlet with a large church on a hill 17kms east of the Orme. There is another St.Leger, 10kms south of Arromanche, but the first would be in line with the progress of the fighting, eastwards after D-Day. I will be most glad to be corrected!

Thank you for the details!
John

 

Hi John, Thank you for getting back to me and sharing your father's incredible story! It's amazing to find new information after all these years! My father didn't speak much about his war experience either. Hence the research. I did take him back before he passed, which revealed more snippets of new information.

Really glad you found the map helpful. It was sent to me from the Gold Museum in Ver sur Mer, with a diary of Rev Reynolds, who attended the med area. It's a very small museum, but worth a visit if in the area. I think it originated from Beach Group 9's War Diary. Other interesting medical info are areas 8 (Red Beach Dressing Station) and 16 (Green Beach Dressing Station) both near roads to the med area, and the word DERNA - which was the code name given to Ver sur Mer in the planning stages for Operation Overlord.

My father was a Class 2 Nursing Orderly. On landing, after his LCT (2562) hit a mine, he made his way inland to the med area.
From what he told me, FDS 35 triaged patients; any sickness/ less severe cases were treated/stabilised there, and eventually evacuated by sea, and those needing surgery sent to 47/48 FSU/32 FDS. The church was damaged and very dusty and used a morgue. Teams of 209 Pioneer Corps erected medical tents and dug slit trenches.

It seems 35 FDS took a different route after leaving BG9 on 12th June, and headed out to St Vigor le Grand on the outskirts of Bayeux. Here they had a psychiatrist attached (Major Wishart) and formed 30 Corps Exhaustion Centre, treating shell shocked soldiers. Click the Google map link for his journey across NW Europe
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1kls01Hme4Q_aW0WvXZ-PxoNOJUBrLali&usp=sharing

You are probably correct about "La Deliverande". I have a vague recollection a couple of 200 bed British Hospitals based here treated Canadian soldiers? There's series of books on Google about WW2 medical services, which are a bit difficult to navigate, (found it easier to use the search box) but have some useful information of this kind. Here's a link to the relevant one. The Army Medical Services

I'm very happy to share some newsletters compiled about my father's journey over the years, the first one on D-Day could be of particular interest. They are work in progress, and updated with any new information/corrections as they come to light. Just email me on lindapetzing@fastmail.uk, and I'll send via WeTransfer.

Very happy to help with anything in future.

Linda

 

I never went to Normandy with my father, but I know he did, with Mother, when my sister and I had left home.

I do remember a summer holiday in Kitzbuhl, when Dad disappeared after we had been out walking and went to an alpine cafe/bar on the way. It turned out that he had met a German who had been on the other side, and that they had been swapping stories! None of which came down to me.

I'll email you, Linda, but we must share anything we find for others here too!
JOhn

 

There was an Ifs south of Caen close to the road to Falaise. It's now at the S. edge of Caen.
No guesses on Aticas

Those MRs match Douvres la Deliverande (inland from Juno) and the St Leger on the Caen-Bayeux highway (inland from Gold).

 

You have the coordinates, so simply use them with period maps.

“LA DELIVERANCE” MR 032806 is (near) La Délivrande:



St.LEGER 863763 is actually in Martragny, just north of the St Léger suggested by SDP, roughly one third of the way to Caen on the N13 road from Bayeux. St Léger itself is at 8675:





IFS village is MR 0463:


Are you certain about CAEN-ATICAS? Could you post an image of the original? I suspect "ATICAS" might a Code Name, but I couldn't find it on any of the Bogus Maps so it might be a misspelling?

Michel

Edit: klambie got it right as I was writing my post. Well done!

 

Yes, completely agree re sharing information here, which I have done previously. The newsletter just captures it all in one place and something I’ve shared with my family.
Here's a photo shared when I joined. Taken on D-Day afternoon, unloading medical supplies. My father is holding the Red Cross flag.
Linda

 

Hi PhilM,
Philip S here in Queensland. You putting the Normandy Maps is great - Sod's law being what it is means that the bit I am interested in finding the map for is the area around Bourneville which is NE of Pont Audemer. My uncle gained an MC on 27 8 44 for action around Bourneville and I am trying to work out what he did. 'Your" maps run out just east of Pont Audemer. Could you tell me how to find the ones covering Bourneville and its environs please?