Operation Tractable- "friendly" Fire?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by peter.hyslop, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    Anyone have info on bombing of Polish and Canadian troops in August 14, 1944 near the Falaise Gap? By british lancs, I believe. My father, deceased since june 2004, mentions it in a letter to my grandmother in late Aug, 1944, quite graphically, surprisingly.... also, the regt history book he had, since disappeared since his death, mentioned quite a few deaths and injuries on that date. He was a gunner with 12th Field Batt with 3rd Can Army as a signalman, landed on D-Day and fought to the end.

    Tx

    Peter
     
  2. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    This happened in operation GOODWOOD. The bombs fell short and on friendly forces. The same thing happened to the American forces on July 24, 1944, in operation COBRA, falling short on 300 of General McNair's US troops and killing General McNair himself. The bombs that fell short in GOODWOOD were the straw that broke the camels back for Ike. He refused to use heavies in the support for ground forces ever again. Even though the German losses were far greater in both cases, it was an unacceptable tradeoff.

    In WWII the Allies were developing the techniques air support with ground troops. It was a new concept. It was also quite a dilemma. The captured Germans described how devastating it was on them. But how many German soldiers’ lives are you willing to trade for one Allied life? Probably nothing in war is worse than friendly casualties. Aircrews were horrified at the idea of dropping ordinance near allied forces. The remainder of the war, they used the Fighter/bomber and medium bomber tactics that worked almost as well.

    There should be a memorial to those lost to friendly fire. What a waste of brave soldiers.
     
  3. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    I was wrong in the name of the Operation, where could I find out more about the Operation, details on who were hit, who bombed, any inquiries about the incident? I remember dad mentioning, in the rare times he actually talked about the war, that it happened near a crossroad, a bit east of Falaise, and abit south, any maps that would pinpoint it?

    Tx

    Peter
     
  4. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    The action on 14 August was called Operation Tractable. According to Six Armies in Normandy by John Keegan, 150 Allied soldiers were killed by their own bombers. Operation Goodwood took place on 18-19 July. Keegan describes casualties from friendly bombing as 'becoming gruesomely familiar' so there were probably some in Goodwood as well.

    Jimbo is correct about Gen McNair, who I think was the most senior Western Allied officer to be killed in action in WWII.
     
  5. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    I am wrong. It was operation TRACTABLE. Thanks for correcting me Gibbo.
     
  6. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Welcome to the forum Peter.
     
  7. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    Guess I was correct about the name, I thought I had found the name in a Time Life book on WWII. Dad didn't mention the name, like I say, he didn't talk much about the war. In 1986 he and my brother and I went to Holland In May and spent 10 days wandering as far as Cleves, where he said his battalion went as far as, and then came back into Holland, then north. We also toured old training bases in England, like Croyden south of London, where they were bombed and he held on to a light post to keep from bouncing around, and for a bit of protection! He was a signalman, as I mentioned, and he wanted to go to a specfic farm outside Grosbeak.. seems he was there with a forward observer officer and spotter for a few days. He knew right where the farm was, after 42 years, and he was asking about a girl who lived there, Yolanda. One of her brothers still lived there, but she had since married a Doctor and lived in Brussels, but I've wondered what went on back then that made him have such a strong memory, he would never tell.... I didn't have the guts to ask him on his deathbed... he starved to death over a 3 month period in 2004, 6 weeks in hospital, he could not eat, and would not take interveinous. He had lots of ailments over the yeras, bad hearing from the guns, bad kidneys from the Indian he used to drive with dispaches, bad heard from a leaky heart valve he had from birth (the military Drs. must have missed it....lol), skin cancer finally was the end of him, but slowly, they took half his face in 2003 and did some chemo- but it had spread already. He spent 35yrs in the sun as a Customs Officer on the Canada/US border, back before canopies and SPF sunscreen. He did say Yolanda's father was killed by a "flying bomb" in his fields, but what would one of those be doing so far inland? One of the brothers was in the "underground" soldier and was killed, likely by the gestapo? I guess I digress, my Q stands, anyone know where I can get more info on the Aug 14 incident? Was there an investigation, who was actually involved, any maps availible?

    Tx
     
  8. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

  9. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (laufer @ Nov 15 2005, 03:39 AM) [post=41560]There were two similar incidents during the Battle of Falaise. In both, the American flying fortresses were involved. I believe that mistake on August 14 was caused by wrong interpretation of colored smoke used to marking targets. Here you find some basic information:
    http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Tex...xt/falaise.html
    and maps:
    http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/MAP/mpfalai.php
    [/b]
    The problem according to Gen Bradley was that the smoke markers were blown back over the area where friendly troops were so the line is mistaken closer to the US soldiers.
     
  10. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    Was there an inquiry? Any reports made during or after the war? Was Harris involved in any way?

    Peter
     
  11. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (peter.hyslop @ Nov 15 2005, 09:08 PM) [post=41599]Was there an inquiry? Any reports made during or after the war? Was Harris involved in any way?

    Peter
    [/b]
    Operation COBRA was all USAAF. Harris was involved in FORTITUDE. I believe the idea was Monty’s and came from the success they had in bombing Caen where no friendly casualties were experienced and they bombed close to their own men, so they thought they could do the same thing here. The reasons they failed were obvious so an inquiry would be pointless. It is simply very hard to apply tactical ground support with heavies because they must bomb vertically. The lines of the front are not marked. Unless a bombardier has a target that is visible then it is a crap shoot. Perhaps they could have worked out a better tactical support process with the ground forces, but when you consider the deadliness of fighter/bombers that can dive on the enemy with great precision and see what they are targeting, and when you consider the Allies aversion to loss of men, it was best to relegate that roll to TAC and keep the bombers destroying the Panzers at the factory rather than in the field. If the Allies were monsters like the German and Russian leaders and didn’t mind throwing men’s lives at a problem, then the use of heavies would have been continued because it was tremendously effective on the German forces that it did hit. But TAC Fighter/Bombers could do the job in just a little more time and the bombers were of use in killing German production. But it goes to show you how our leadership valued the lives of men.
     
  12. adamcotton

    adamcotton Senior Member

    COBRA was all USAAF, Jimbo, you are right. However, it was not carried out by heavy bombers alone. In fact, over 500 fighter-bombers - P-47s and P51s - were also involved, in addition to the 1800 B-24s and B-17s.
     
  13. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Goodwood? Bombed short? I have no knowledge of this? We were in the Vanguard of the battle. We watched as 2000 heavies bombed the Heights along with 700 guns, (Grand stand view) At no time did we experience any friendly fire from the bombers. Not from the start line, right up to the Bourgebous Ridge.

    Nowhere, to my knowledge, was there friendly fire on the Goodwood operation. What we did see was a huge cloud of dust and smoke that rose miles in to the sky, and the ground beneath our feet felt the weight of the explosions. What did happen is that bombers never got their bombs to the Ridge, and that is where the 88s and the Panzers waited in a solid wall.

    I never heard of one instance of bombing short, And I would like to know who suffered? What unit? For no unit I know was bombed.

    And I did travel some distance around the area of the Goodwood operation...In the middle of the Bombing we did have the pleasure of watching a German tank with its crew still aboard, being escorted down the road by a couple of Shermans.

    When I read these tales, I sometimes wonder where ever did this come from? For much of it bears little relation to what actually happened.
    Sapper
     
  14. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    I'm getting a bit confused, this incident happened during Tracable, not Goodwood, correct? Where does Op Cobra come in? I've contacted the Canadian National Artillery Museum in Shilo, Manitoba and they say they think a formal inquiry was done, and that I should contact Hendon Air Museum in the UK, as they have extensive archives on anything Air related. I'll keep you informed if I find out anything of interest. Smoke drifting seems like a plausible explaination, but I remember my dad saying some men were shooting their weapons at the bombers and yelling. I will provide his written acct, if I can.

    Peter
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (peter.hyslop @ Nov 17 2005, 12:07 PM) [post=41644]I'm getting a bit confused, this incident happened during Tracable, not Goodwood, correct? Where does Op Cobra come in? I've contacted the Canadian National Artillery Museum in Shilo, Manitoba and they say they think a formal inquiry was done, and that I should contact Hendon Air Museum in the UK, as they have extensive archives on anything Air related. I'll keep you informed if I find out anything of interest. Smoke drifting seems like a plausible explaination, but I remember my dad saying some men were shooting their weapons at the bombers and yelling. I will provide his written acct, if I can.

    Peter
    [/b]

    Hope this sheds some light!!

    Battle of the Hedgerows: July 7-15, 1944

    American military units encountered stiff resistance from German armed forces in the broken farmlands around St. Lo. Progress was slow. Costly German counterattacks continued.
    US 1st Army Advance to St. Lô: July 10-18, 1944
    American efforts to breakthrough to St. Lo remained slow. German armed forces put up a determined defense. The US armed forces advanced at less than one mile per day.


    Operation Goodwood: July 18-20, 1944

    British armored forces attempted to outflank Caen from the left while Canadian units continued to press forward through and and to the right. German military units, primarily of the Waffen SS, fought an aggressive defensive battle and withdrew before being trapped by Allied advances.

    Operation Cobra: July 24-31, 1944

    Benefiting from the British-led operations around Caen, American armed forces made somewhat better progress in the effort to breakout on the right flank of the Allied line. German counterattacks continued, however, and progress remained relatively slow.

    Allied Drive to the Seine: August 1-16, 1944

    The successful breakout from Normandy was reflected in the Allied sweep across northern France during this period. German military resistance collapsed. Landings in southern France (Operation Dragoon) took place on August 15th and the US and French forces swept northward against light opposition.

    American Drive into Brittany: August 3-7, 1944

    Forces of Patton's Third Army with elements of the US First Army on the left flank pressed into Brittany. The German forces fell back into designated ports to hold out, in one case up to the end of the war.

    Operation Totalize: August 7-11, 1944

    Canadian II Corps drove southwest from Caen in the direction of Falaise. Royal Air Force heavy bombers provided support for the effort.

    Operation Totalise preceded Operation Tractable.

    Lieutenant-General Guy G. Simonds
    Guy Granville Simonds, born in Bury St. Edmunds, England, on April 23rd, 1903; died in Toronto on May 15th, 1974. Canadian Army officer.

    II Canadian Corps set up its HQ in France in July 1944, at a time when the Normandy campaign seemed to be getting bogged down. In July and August, Simonds headed four important operations against German positions: Atlantic, Spring, Totalize and Tractable. These were difficult operations against an enemy bitterly fighting for each square inch of a terrain with which it was familiar. Despite the lukewarm success of Operation Totalize on August 7th, Simonds' strategy was remarkable by its cleverness in neutralizing German armoured vehicles and antitank defences. It was then that Simonds invented the "Kangaroo", an improvised troop carrier made by taking the guns off a "Priest" self-propelled gun. Operation Tractable on August 14th allowed Canadian and Polish troops to close the Falaise Gap.


    On September 27th, 1944, Simonds took charge of the 1st Canadian Army on a temporary basis, in replacement of General H.D.G. Crerar. The liberation of the mouth of the Scheldt River was once again an opportunity for him to display his remarkable tactical intelligence; his firm leadership made a favourable impression on Montgomery. Crerar, however, took back his post with the 1st Army and Simonds resumed his command of II Canadian Corps for the liberation of North-Western Europe.

    Battle of the Falaise Pocket: August 16-19, 1944

    Significant military forces of the German Seventh Army were caught in the converging pincers of the Allied armies at Falaise. The relative slowness of closing the gap allowed substantial numbers of Germans to escape but only with the loss of most of their equipment. Allied fighter-bombers created havoc among the retreating Germans.

    Operation Market Garden: Plan to Capture Rhine Crossings

    General Montgomery's plan to capture bridges across the rivers and canals in Holland that would allow the Allied advance to continue into northern Germany, unimpeded by these natural defensive lines. German forces in Holland and especially in the Arnhem area are much stronger than anticipated. The plan proved too ambitious.
     
  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Peter,

    Gibbo corrected me on the third post of this thread, as to it being operation TRACTABLE. The significance of Operation COBRA to your question was that the same thing happened there, only worse. That's the only reason I brought it up. The TRACTABLE incident was the last straw for Ike. I am not aware of any inquiry unless it was a retrospective one after the war. Ike and Bradley never mentioned one. What would be the point of an inquiry especially in the middle of a heavy battle in a world war? The ground forces and the Air Force in both situations could tell exactly what went wrong. Both were sickened by it. It is even stated in Ike’s book that the problem with heavies is that they cannot easily determine the front line from say 10000 feet. Believe me, at 10000 feet, you can barely make out a human if you have a perfectly contrasting surface he is standing on, so if they are in cammo, no way you could find them from the air. Much less tell if it is friendly or enemy.

    Both of these operations would be considered successful if you compared it to potential ground fighting losses. But it is the principle that the people on the ground have no cover and no defense that was simply unnerving to Allied command. Humans are too valuable to the Allies.

    As far as men shooting their weapons at the bombers and yelling, even if the crews could hear them or see them (which is completely out of the question), why would they not simply think they were Germans trying to shoot them down and zero in on them even more? But the fact is, they couldn't see, not at that altitude. You ought to try finding a runway at 6000 feet and it has large numbers painted on the ends with a long straight strip of asphalt with stripes down the middle, or see another plane at a lower altitude with the controller tells you exactly where he is in relation to you and his altitude. On a bombing run, the lead bomber starts the bombs, then the rest follow his bombing staying in formation which gives the desired distribution of bombs on an area. If he is on, everyone is on, if he is short, everyone is short. Unfortunately this area being so close to the Allied lines happened to overlap and then you have casualties.

    You know Peter, it’s a really strange dilemma. You have your forces facing massive German forces and superior artillery and armor. If they go head to head, statistically you are going to get the worst of it maybe lose divisions. But you can bring bombers through and erase the enemy but run a risk at getting some of your own. In TRACTABLE’s case 100-200 men (killed and wounded), in COBRA’s case ~300. What would you do? Would you order more heavy bomber strikes on German lines in the future? It makes sense militarily if the main objective is to win. But could you make that call? This is what they commanders were faced with. The forces on the ground were not even. Germany’s ground weaponry made them more dangerous than the Allies whose only ground strength may have been freedom loving gutsy soldiers alone. So knowing this, what would the inquiry be? To determine if this was done on purpose? Wouldn’t that be highly insulting to the commanders to even infer such an egregious act? Carelessness? The pilots were terrified on these missions. Some would even try to “beg out” for fear they would be a part of friendly fire. What could an inquiry tell you? All you really care about is the tactical reason because you want to make sure it doesn’t happen again. They could do this by talking to the pilots and the spotters on the ground. They knew exactly what went wrong. This did not happen in GOODWOOD as sapper pointed out, so they assumed they had fixed the coordination problems of COBRA and ordered TRACTABLE (according to Ike). Get a biography on Ike and read about these incidents. It did not sit well with him at all.

    But, you seem bothered by the issue Peter, as I might be if I had just read it. Answer my dilemma if you would. If you were Ike, would you order bombings by the heavies to save lives even if it stood a good chance of taking out a relative few in the process? Say maybe you save 1000 lives but lose 150 by the bombing itself and cause heavy losses in the German ranks? It would save 850 of your own men that would have been lost if they battle went head to head. Ike couldn’t stomach it and so it stopped after the incident in TRACTABLE. What would you do, Peter? How would you make that call?
     
  17. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    Clears up the fog! The dates of Tractable would be Aug 12-15 thenm and the bombing took place the 14th. I'm not that familiar with the actions and operations, learning! I'll post anything I find out from Hendon.

    Peter
     
  18. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    I have no problem with Ike or Harris stopping the close bombing, especially if it had the risk of taking out allied soldiers and equipment. I just mentioned what dad had wrote to his parents with respect to the soldiers reaction, most of whom I would think would be trying to burrow underground as far as they can. I was surprised that the letter was not censored really, and surprised that he would worry his parents with the details... his wounds were not so bad as to take him out of action, but in the '60s I remember him having to go to the hospital for a minor operation, picking out shrapnel from his thigh. I had something similar happen, in that I fell on a cinder track while track and field in the late '60s, and I didn't clean the wound. I kept competing, and the wound soon scabbed over. when the scab came off, there was black cinder in my leg, that has faded over time and 35 yrs later is still visible. Not the same thing, but similar in action over time. In any case, I'm not sure if the people at the Canadian National Artillery Museum are wrong or not, but the people at Hendon should get back to me soon. Like I say, I'll post whatever, if anything, they inform me of.

    Peter
     
  19. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Peter,

    I posted this before however it did not take...........very interesting.


    http://stonebooks.com/archives/050619.shtml

    Reid, Brian A. No Holding Back: Operation Totalize, Normandy, August 1944. Toronto: Robin Brass Studio, 2005

    ISBN 1-896941-40-0
    xix + 491 pages
     
  20. peter.hyslop

    peter.hyslop Junior Member

    This book looks like required reading for post D-Day operations seems to concentrate in detail on Totalize. I see there was allied friendly fire bombing on the openong of Totalize-After reviewing German strength and dispositions, the book goes into effectivness, or lack of, of the heavy bomber attack that marked the opening of Totalize:

    "As the sky finally darkened into night, the first of 1,019 heavy bombers neared the French coast in two parallel north-to-south streams. The bombing itself was to last from 2300 to 2340 hours, with May-sur-Orne and La Hogue to be struck first at 2300, followed by Fontenay-le-Marmion and Secqueville-la-Campagne at 2320 and finally Mare-de-Magne at 2340. The master bombers, flying at four to five thousand feet, identified the targets and marked them with target indicators of the same colour, although they later reported the green artillery flares ended before Targets 1 and 3 could be marked accurately. With the targets identified and marked, the main bomber force was called in and the attack commenced. Without a brisk wind to dissipate the smoke and dust, the targets soon became obscured and the master bombers ordered more than a third of the aircraft to bring their bomb loads home. In all, 642 aircraft actually attacked the five targets, dropping a total of 3,456 tons of high explosive. Target 1, Fontenay-le-Marmion, was struck only slightly, the weight of the bombing falling about a half mile to the west and obliterating the small hamlet of Le Val. Target 3, May-sur-Orne, was largely untouched despite being attacked by 89 Halifaxes and 3 Lancasters, and while some bombs fell in fields near St. Martin-de-Fontenay, no evident bomb pattern could be identified during an investigation by No. 2 Operational Research Section shortly after the battle. In fact, a few bombs even fell among the Fusiliers Mont-Royal companies of 6 Canadian Infantry Brigade waiting for the order to advance. It is possible that the poor results on Targets 1 and 3 resulted from the gap between the 25-pounder flares burning out and the arrival of the marking aircraft, although other factors may have played a part, including the tendency for the bomb pattern to creep backwards as the crews dropped on the rear of the marker pattern."

    Reid concludes: "This bombing attack was designed to seal off the flanks of the advance but the strong points like Tilly-la-Campagne and Rocquancourt were still untouched. The result was that, after a major attack by Bomber Command resulting in the dropping of 3,456 tons of bombs and the loss of ten aircraft shot down and another destroyed on landing, the main German defences were left largely intact and fully alert. It now fell to the attacking troops and the artillery to batter a way through six battalions of German infantry in prepared positions."


    This is the kind of detail I have been looking for. I learned something important from this account- that the arillery "pre-smoked" for the master bomber, or pathfinders with canned smoke from their 25 pounders...Do you have any excerpts relating to the Aug 14 action on the Canadians and Poles?

    I have heard from Hendon, rather quickly, and there was indeed a formal inquiry in which Harris was involved, as the Can Nat Artillery Museum thought. I wonder why they don't have a copy? Hendon is sending a copy to me, digitized I hope. I will post anything of interest, and send copies to anyone who requests one. I'm not sure how lomg it is, or how much this site will accept. I'm still not clear as to who actually did the bombing, and who was bombed other than my father's unit, the 12th Field Artillery and the Poles- 1st Polish Armour?

    Peter
     

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