Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by TTH, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

     
  2. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Just vaguely remembering what I read in a book about weapons many many years ago. I might have gotten it wrong, or the author might have. He could have been referring to a Tommy gun and my feeble memory mixed things up.

    As to current mil spec shotgun cases, I'm sure you are right. If memory serves, US military shotguns originally used cardboard cases, then went progressively to plastic and/or brass. I'm not sure on when all this happened though, a good shotgun site would have much better info. That manual I referred to might have something on it.
     
  3. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    The British were very satisfied with shotguns during the Malayan emergency, where they proved to be excellent close-range ambush weapons. During WWI the Germans protested that shotguns were contrary to the rules, but the US just told them to take a hike, son. Still, in WWII they don't appear to have been used in Europe nearly as much as they were in the Pacific. I'm not an expert on combat shotgun history, and you can find all this in detail elsewhere.
     
  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Do you have any more info on the US use ?

    I've seen picture of aerial gunners and pilots training with shotguns on clay birds and some civilian guards at munitions factories carrying them but I've never seen or read about any use in combat during WWII.

    In WWI and Vietnam, yes.

    Most interesting. Very short range and slow reloads would be pretty big disadvantages, I would think.

    Thanks,

    Dave

    Dave,

    On occasion, I have used a 12 gauge, with slugs, for white tailed deer hunting. Mostly we used rifles but in dense bush and cedar swamps, the 12 gauge was effective. The ranges were always short and unlike a bullet, the slug's path was virtually uneffected by branches and twigs.
    I could easily see a shortened shotgun version, with the right choke, being effective in close quarter urban combat with buckshot or SSG.
     
  5. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I too was under the impression that 'shotguns' were illegal under the Geneva Convention (itself a collection of Hague Coventions originally from 1899), although whether this applies to shot or solid rounds is unclear. I am sure this has been dealt with previously on this forum.
    Can anyone document this specifically? From what I have read it is a very complicated subject and to some extent depends on who were signatories to the various Conventions. In some cases if one beligerant was a signatory but the opponent was not neither side abided by the Convention. With multiple forces involved who could really work out the legality, and in the field who really cared?

    The original objection appears to be a German one dating from WW1, 1918, and seems to refer to US forces widespread use. Not much mention of British or Commonwealth use, or indeed French or Belgian forces, which is surprising as I suspect they all employed the shotgun at times. The objection does seem to be somewhat ill-founded as the Hague Convention quoted also bans the use of flame and gas/bio weapons, widely used by both sides at that point.
    It does seem to me a bit like an innefectual last ditch appeal by the German forces towards the last stages of WW1.

    Other objections and conventions apparently questioned the use of .50Cal and hollow point munitions against personnel rather than equipment (note no ref to 20mm or larger, probably more pertinent to WW2) but I can find few objections or conventions regarding shrapnel grenades or Canister or shrapnel artillery which to my knowledge were greater causes of death and grevious wounds.
    There are many more recent Convention references to landmines: Detectability (eg plastic body), defined life (ie self destructing) that I consider more relevant to today's worries than use of shotguns in combat.

    I suspect it is an unanswerable argument.
     
  6. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    There is quite a lot to add to this.

    In 1914 Maxim submitted an "automatic shotgun" to the War Office for clearing trenches invaded by the enemy. This was not a personal weapon but a tripod mounted device that fired about thirty special shot cartridges sequentially in a single burst. The idea was that it could be set up to "sweep" the trench, but how it was supposed to overcome traverses etc. I know not. The War Office purchased a prototype but after some consideration the army Attorney-General decreed that it could not be used as it contravened the various conventions.

    AFAIK, there was no other use of shotguns by British personnel in the trenches. What may confuse the issue is that a number of double rifles saw service to defeat German loophole armour. A variety of calibres were employed up to .600 Nitro Express.

    In the air, shotguns were used. The RNAS purchased shotguns from Holland and Holland for defence against Zeppelins. Two types were issued, a normal choked version called the Aero Gun and a Paradox type with the last few inches of the barrel rifled. They were referred to a ".707 inch" calibre and normal shot, Buckingham incendiary and chain shot rounds were issued.

    Large numbers (about 2,500) of single barrel Harrington and Richardson shotguns were bought for training RFC and RNAS air gunners as well as some "Empire Model" Greener guns. To give a more realistic training for multiple shots some Winchester Model 1911 self loading shotguns were also purchased.

    Again in WW2 shotguns were regularly used for both training air gunners (with 12b tracer ammo) and also for bird control on airfields.

    The Home Guard also used shotguns and both SG and spherical ball were issued as military rounds.

    The Browning A5 self loader saw extensive use in the far east, especially during the Malayan emergency and an Operational Analysis after the campaign found that the shotgun had the highest kill ratio when compared to the other weapons in use, Sten, No.5 rifle and M1 carbine. The normal load was SG which is 9 balls of .31 inch diameter.

    Currently the British army is deploying Bennelli automatic shotguns in Afghanistan, firing SG and slug.

    Regards
    TonyE
     
    TTH likes this.
  7. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

     
  8. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

  9. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Again in WW2 shotguns were regularly used for both training air gunners (with 12b tracer ammo) and also for bird control on airfields.

    The Home Guard also used shotguns and both SG and spherical ball were issued as military rounds.

    The Browning A5 self loader saw extensive use in the far east, especially during the Malayan emergency

    Thanks as always, Tony. I think I saw your posts around this matter on a WWI forum. I have some questions, though, if you don't mind.

    1. Do you know if any American-made pump or automatic weapons were used by the HG or for training purposes, or were single and double guns the only types so used?

    2. When you say the Browning A5 was used in the Far East, do you mean the Far East in WWII also or Malaya only?

    Also, is the fellow working on a book about WWII substitute arms a friend of yours in Australia? I seem to remember that from other fora too.
     
  10. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    Quite a lot of mis-information and a dash of American anti-Imperialism on the site linked.

    The .410 Indian Musket will only take a comercial .410 shotgun cartridge of any length if it has been chamber reamed. American surplus importers often did this to make them more saleable.

    The original .410 Musket round was an un-necked .303 nch case and was made as shot, segmented shot, round ball, blank, drill and dummy loads. These were mainly made by Kirkee Arsenal but Kynoch also loaded shot and spherical ball.

    Segmented shot is a cylindrical lead slug sliced into eight segments just like a cake, so the resulting pellets have lots of sharp edges.

    Shot and ball are the most often found, but even these are extremely scarce and all other types are very rare, although I suppose they could be found in India. I have the first two types and a blank is on its way to me from Oz of all places.

    Picture shows rounds compared to .303 inch ball.

    Regards
    TonyE
     

    Attached Files:

  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Crete was one of the great early-war disasters. There were many reasons for the defeat, and the lack of sufficient standard weapons for the garrison was one of them. The artillery units on the island lacked sufficient 25-pounders, and they were made up to strength with ex-Italian weapons and some other pieces, usually referred to as "French." The NZ, British, and Australian histories offer little real information on the types used, but I did some online digging. The units in question (234 Medium Bty, 2/3rd Australian Field Regt, and 5th NZ Field Regt) were apparently equipped with ex-Italian 75mm guns (M06), ex-Italian 75mm howitzers (M34), ex-Italian/Austro-Hungarian Skoda 100mm howitzers (M1916). The French pieces were actually American or Franco-American, US-made French M1897 75mm field guns ('A' subtype not given), and possibly some M1917 75mm field guns as well. Many of these pieces had been destined for the Greek Army, but were held in Crete and given to Creforce when mainland Greece fell. The sources are here [FONT=&quot]Obice da 75/18 modello 34 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and here [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Axis History Forum • View topic - Greek Artillery 1941[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (especially pages 2-3).
    [/FONT]
     
  12. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    Thanks as always, Tony. I think I saw your posts around this matter on a WWI forum. I have some questions, though, if you don't mind.

    1. Do you know if any American-made pump or automatic weapons were used by the HG or for training purposes, or were single and double guns the only types so used?

    2. When you say the Browning A5 was used in the Far East, do you mean the Far East in WWII also or Malaya only?

    Also, is the fellow working on a book about WWII substitute arms a friend of yours in Australia? I seem to remember that from other fora too.

    Sorry, I missed that post.

    I am sure some weapons of this type must have come to the UK with the "Guns for Britain" campaign but I cannot recall seeing any pictures of the HG armed with them, only with singles and doubles.

    When I talked about the Browning A5 it was in reference to the malayan campaign. Many years ago there was a series of articles in the old "Guns Review" magazine about the weapons used there and that was where the information came from.

    The chap working on the WWII book is indeed in Australia. It is Alan David in Sydney.

    Regards
    TonyE
     
  13. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Thank you, Tony. I must admit that the failure of British forces to make any combat use of shotguns in WWII rather baffles me. The Australians were fighting right next to the US Army & Marines, who used shotguns to great effect, but if the Australian Army ever used them I have yet to hear of it. I don't know if Merrill's Marauders had any in Burma, but they would have made good weapons for the Chindits as well.

    Do you know of any good source on Guns for Britain? By good I mean one that would give some idea of the numbers & types of weapons, and what uses (if any) they were put to. I would love to pick Mr. David's brains too, but perhaps I should wait until his book appears.
     
  14. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    There is a lot of information in the British National Archives at Kew, including lists of weapons received.

    The IWM photo library has many good photographs of the Home Guard with a wide variety of "unofficial" weapons such as P.08 pistols and others.

    I don't know when Alan's book is likely to appear but it will be well worth the wait.

    I keep distracting him by asking him about WWI Winchesters etc., that ended up dowm under!

    Cheers
    TonyE
     
  15. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    We're back to pistols once again. More oddities can be found among British handguns in the world wars than any other class of weapon.

    The US handgun expert, Charles Pate, is dubious about the use of .25 caliber weapons by the US armed forces in WWII. But there seems to be some evidence that pistols in that weak chambering were used by various British forces.

    TonyE here reports that Free Polish airmen in the RAF had some .25 pistols. One .25 caliber Webley allegedly got to Dieppe in Canadian hands:
    Argghhh! The Home Of Two Of Jonah's Military Guys.. - Yanno, when I travel...

    Automatics in .25 were small and easily concealed, and that may have made them useful for police undercover detectives. I suppose that is why the Shanghai Municipal Police ordered some Browning M1905 .25 autos from FN: FN Browning Pistols Side-Arms that Shaped World History book

    The main users of .25 pistols, however, were SOE and other clandestine agencies. [FONT=&quot]Browning M1905 | Imperial War Museums

    Noor Inayat Khan, one of the most famous of SOE agents, carried a Webley .25: [/FONT]
    WWIIReenacting.co.uk Forums • View topic - SOE documentary Noor Inayat Khan

    I've come to the conclusion that SOE people could and did use just about anything, which stands to reason. The Home Guard had some very odd stuff in its armoury, but SOE's toyshop was just as strange.
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
     
  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    On a tangential note, I think I saw a Himmler Walther in .25 somewhere once. Fort Benning maybe?

    Dave
     
  17. AlanDavid

    AlanDavid Junior Member

    Hello TTH, also fancy bumping into you here Tony!

    I am the bloke who has been slowly reseaching material for a book with the above title. My main interest is British military small arms, accoutriments and accessories, along with ammunition, fighting knives training manuals etc. For many years I have specialised in the non-mainstreem, odd ball, secondary issue British military small arms. My book will start where Tony's finishes. To keep on topic the subject of British military secodary issues small arms in WW2 can be brocken down to the following main catagories; with a few exceptions of course.

    1. Contacts placed in the USA before Lend Lease.This will include Thompson SMG's the Smith & Wesson Light Rifle, Smith & Wesson revolvers and some .50 and .30 Browning machine guns through Colt.

    2. The large order placed through the US Steel Company in July 1940 for 500,000 Model 1917 rifles, 800 odd 75mm guns and about 80,000 MG's. There is a list of these weapons in one of the British history textbooks written after the war. There are some mistakes in this list. Also, there were 4 or 5 ammendments to this, copies of which I am trying to sourse from the States, with a view to determining how many Model 1917 rifles the UK actually ended up with.There was also two further cash purchases with the States for these rifles which violated the Nutralaty Act.

    3. Cash and carry purchases in the USA in 1940. Mostly handguns from Colt, Smith & Wesson and H&R. Later ongoing contact were placed mainly with S&W but also with Colt for pistols such as the .32 auto hammerless pocket pistol.

    4. Other orders were placed with a number of other American handgun manufactures under lend lease for M1911A1 pistols, this included Ithaca and Remington Rand. 8,000 .45 pistols were also obtained from Ballister Mollina in Argintina.

    5. In the UK there were a number of appeals to the public for firearms, the first being for shotguns which netted about 20,000.This was just after Dunkirk and these shotguns were intended for the LDV. There was also a quick whip around the trade by the War Office for handguns in July 1940. Some of these purchases are recorded in the contact ledger books at the Narional Archives, many are not. There was then a further 3 or 4 pistol and rifle drives with the trade and public , the first of these being in October 1941. Very few of these purchases are recorded in the contract ledgers at Kew, therefore I am slowly making my way around all the major gun makers who still have their records and copying the information. These pistol and rifle drives were intended to help supply SOE.

    6. Accuastion of small arms by the SOE Arms Section.Will be a chapter.

    7. The American Committee for Defence of British Homes. I have gatherd about as much information on this subject as anyone, from both in the UK and in America. It will take up a complete chapter in my book. There was an article about this in an issue of "Britain at War" a few years ago, by Martin Mace. However, it is not a completly accurate account - sorry Martin!

    8.Lend Lease. Many of the small arms being shown as sent to Britain were passed onto another country, this is the case with the Model 1903 30/06 rifles. Also, the record shows 38001 Garands arriving but British records show only an order for 30,000, most of which seem to have been put into storage with the RAF. I have yet to see a picture of any British servicman in WW2 with a British contract Garand. Needless to say this is a large subject.

    I will be laying to rest a few urban myths such as the myth that 2/3rds of the Thompsons shipped to the UK ended up on the bottom of the Atlantic.

    I have written this in a hurry so there will be much I have missed such as checking my spelling. I will post again on some of the more specific comments in previous posts. If any one wants to contact me off-line thats fine with me.

    Regards

    Alan David
    Sydney
     
  18. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Great to hear from you, Alan. I look forward to your book, naturally. I'm obsessed by this subject, and I have snapped up odds and ends of information from all over the place. (Sadly, I haven't gotten to any archives.) I doubt that much you read here will surprise you, but you're welcome to jump in any time and correct any of my goofs. Tony has been a great contributor, and I'm sure you will be the same.
     
  19. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I imagine that most people who know something about 20th century firearms have heard of the Madsen gun. It was the first true LMG, appearing in 1902. It was made for over 50 years, served with dozens of countries in innumerable calibers, and until just a few years ago it was still being used by the Brazilian police. Yet finding really good information about the weapon is not easy. It had a lot of export success with small and medium-sized nations, but it was never a standard first-line gun with any major power. Larger armies did buy it, but they used it as a substitute weapon.

    Britain's involvement with the Madsen is complex and obscure. A few early Madsens (known as Rexer guns) were used by South African forces in WWI, and the Madsen very nearly wound up taking the place of the Lewis as the standard British Great War LMG. For various reasons that never happened. The story can be found at the following links:
    [FONT=&quot]The Rexer Automatic Machine Gun[/FONT] britain & the madsen machine gun 1914-18
    Two weapons questions - Great War Forum

    As usual, our TonyE has contributed to the discussion.

    The .303 Madsen was also a competitor in the LMG trials that finally led to the adoption of the Bren: brenpage

    Did Britain have the Madsen in its WWII inventory or not? Chamberlain and Gander in Machine Guns (Arco series) list British Madsen models of 1915, 1919, 1929, 1931, and 1939. They say that some were trial guns (which fits), but that the Home Guard had some too. My 1970's edition of Smith's Small Arms of the World also lists the same British Madsen models, but has no other information. If anybody here knows more about this, I'd be glad to hear from them.
     
  20. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I'm getting VERY esoteric now. In an earlier post, I listed the main US-made revolvers in British WWII service. These were:

    Smith & Wesson New Century or Triple Lock Hand Ejector (.455, .45, a few in .357 Magnum and .38 Special)
    Smith & Wesson Military & Police (.38, some .38 Special too)
    Colt New Service (.455, .45)
    Colt Official Police (.38)

    There were other models, too, but they were largely confined to SOE, Home Guard, merchant navy, and police service.

    Colt Officer's Model & Officer's Model Target
    Colt Police Positive (.38)
    Colt Police Positive Special (.38 Special)
    Colt Single Action Army (.45, .357. .38)
    Smith & Wesson Heavy Duty (.38/44, popular with Canadian police)
    Smith & Wesson Regulation Police (.38)
    Harrington & Richardson Bobby (.32)
    Harrington & Richardson Defender (.38)
    Iver Johnson Safety Auto and Safety Auto Hammerless (.32, .38)

    After some poking around on the net, I can add a couple more. The British bought many of the Colt Official Police in the standard .38, but the US forces also purchased a wartime-made version of the same gun called the Commando. This was cheaply finished and came in .38 Special only. Pate says the Commando was mainly issued to authorities and agencies in the US, but some airmen and sailors used it too. Anyway, it seems that a very few may have made their way into British hands (merchant navy?) via Lend-Lease and the Maritime Commission. [FONT=&quot]Colt Commando | Imperial War Museums[/FONT]

    Also related to the Official Police was the Army Special model, the O.P.'s nearly identical predecessor in the Colt medium-frame line. The Greeks purchased some in the 1920's in .38 Special, and at least one wound up in British hands via the British Purchasing Commission. This gun has a unique set of proofs and passed through many hands: http:www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-revolvers/4005-colt-da-army-special-38-english-proofs.html

    Here is another oddball, a Colt .38 Police Positive that got to Australia perhaps as early as 1929, spent some time as a private or police weapon, and finally got to the army: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/371713/revolver-colt-police-positive-1929
     

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