Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Coast Defense: Standard Guns

I'm shifting the focus again, this time to coast defense artillery. This is a subject I have shied away from until now. Until quite recently I knew relatively little about the subject. From what I can tell, you can know an awful lot about WWII and still know close to zilch about coast defense. It's a rather arcane area, the province of little groups of fortification nerds. I'm not sneering, because now that I'm getting acquainted with coast defense I find it fascinating. British (Dominion, Empire, etc) coast defense, however, is an even more complex subject and presents special problems. To begin with, the guns were divided broadly into three groups. The biggest and longest-ranged guns (15", 9.2", 6" on 45-degree mountings) were designated as counter-bombardment to deal with major attacks by enemy capital ships and cruisers. Lighter weapons (6" on 15-degree mountings down to the automatic 6-pounder) were called close defense guns and dealt with attacks by enemy destroyers and light craft. Finally there were beach defense guns, generally field artillery weapons emplaced to oppose an enemy landing. Coast defense units manned the first two classes always, the third sometimes. Medium and heavy caliber field guns could be and were deployed to strengthen close defense and railways guns were employed almost entirely in the coast defense role as well. I am leaving all that stuff aside for the moment and concentrating on the designated coast artillery weapons in permanent works. Before you can talk about substitute or non-standard coast guns, though, you have to determine which were the standard guns and I haven't found that easy. With some exceptions the army shared the same weapons as the RN and for decades the army got weapons which the RN no longer needed for shipboard use. Even the excellent navweaps site confesses that standardization was not a high priority for the RN until the 1950s, and as a consequence even in 1939 all sorts of old and odd guns were scattered in fortifications across the Empire. As a nearly as I can make out, the following pieces were more or less standard at that date:

15" Mark I
9.2" Mark X
6" Mk VII
6" Mk XXIV (same as Mk VII except different barrel construction)
6-pdr Mk X

Determining the status of the heavy and medium guns is relatively easy, but below the 6" were a range of lighter pieces, 4.7", 4", 12-pdr, 6-pdr, and 3-pdr, and I can't for the life of me figure out which of these were standard in 1939 and which weren't. If anyone here can help I'd be grateful. Once we can sort that out I can move on to the odd pieces, and boy were there a lot of those.

 

The 9.2” Mk.X was the main heavy coastal gun in WW2.

You will find data on many of these naval derived guns here.
Naval Guns of the United Kingdom / Britain - NavWeaps

In 1939 were only 5x15” coastal guns all at Singapore. Another pair (named Clem & Jane) were mounted in the Wanstone battery at Dover in 1942. There was also a pair of 14” guns named Winnie & Pooh installed at Dover In 1940/41.

You will find a complete listing of the Dover guns in After the Battle issue 29. There were a myriad of sizes. 6”, 8”, 9.2”, 12” howitzers, 18” howitzer as well as 13.5” rail guns and the ones noted above. The magazine has a full listing.
ISSUE No. 29

After the Battle issue 21 covered the batteries at Gibraltar.
ISSUE No. 21
There were also some 5.25” dual purpose guns mounted there.
Princess Anne's Battery

Basically, coastal guns were anything that hands could be laid on! Smaller calibres were meant to prevent intrusions into harbours by destroyers and torpedo boats and were generally backed up by searchlights. Larger calibres 5.5”+, for sinking armoured warships.

Another aspect of coastal defence you might want to explore are the indicator loops to detect submarines. Indicator Loop Stations

Depending on how deep you want to go I’d recommend
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fatal-Fort...apore+defences&qid=1615320945&s=books&sr=1-19
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scapa-Flow-defences-Britain’s-anchorage/dp/1846033667/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Osprey+Fortress+Scapa+flow&qid=1615321024&s=books&sr=1-1

The Osprey Fortress series has other coast defence related titles on other sites like Pearl Harbor, Corregidor etc.

You might also like to join the Fortress Study Group
Home Page | Fortress Study Group
Or the International Fortress Council
About us | International Fortress Council

It is also worth looking through the various Abandoned Engineering episodes on TV. A couple recently looked at various defences in the Forth estuary.

 

Individuals cannot join the IFC, it is for organizations etc. The IFC website can help to identify mainly European groups. If big guns are your focus try the mainly US group the Coastal Defence Studies Group: home

 

Thank you for all that. I have already used NavWeaps.com extensively, in fact a good half of my information about the guns comes from that site. As the site's focus is naval rather than coastal, though, it misses some things. There is a pretty good site on coast defenses in the Western Hemisphere with coverage of Canada and the British Caribbean. I don't want to go too deep into coast defense per se here since that deserves its own thread. My focus is on the guns, and particularly on the many substitute and non-standard types used in WWII.

 

Now some years ago I read a book about the "Phoney War" period when Winston Churchill was at the Admiralty. He discovered that the RN had stored a variety of "big guns" and ordered them be deployed. It was an unexpected bonus, as very few knew of this post-1918 storage. Alas that is all I can remember now.

 

After WWI many RN ships were scrapped and many guns of all calibers from these vessels were stored away. This proved fortunate in 1940, when they were put back in service. In response to the post-Dunkirk crisis the army erected 118 emergency coast defense batteries around the shores of the UK, many of them armed with the older weapons alluded to. Others went to strengthen defenses overseas.

 

10-inch Gun M1888

Since I can't yet sort out the standard/non-standard status of the guns below 6", I'll start with a heavy gun which is a favorite of mine. The US 10-inch gun M1888 and its sub-variants the M1888MI and M1888MII was the first in a series of 10-inch guns which were standard for counter-bombardment in US coast fortifications for many years. By WWII, though, the M1888 was passing into obsolescence and when Canada and Britain needed help defending the western shores of the Atlantic the M1888 was elected. (Note how we readily got rid of stuff we didn't want anyway--we were less noble than we think.) In April 1941 eight M1888s were sent to Canada, or rather four M1888s, three M1888MII, and one M1888MI. Three of these pieces were mounted on M1894M1 disappearing carriages, the remaining five on M1893 barbette carriages. (The barbette carriages, by the way, were built in the US arsenal at Watertown, Massachusetts, which is where I now live.) The guns were deployed at important convoy assembly and transit points. Two barbette guns were placed in Fort McNutt near Halifax, two disappearing guns in Fort Cape Spear near St. John's, Newfoundland, two barbette guns at Wiseman Cove near Botwood, Newfoundland, and one disappearing gun and one barbette gun in Fort Prevel on the St. Lawrence estuary. Performance of the M1888, to be honest, was not exceptional for a gun in its class. Range on the barbette carriage was 16,400 yards and just 14,200 on the disappearing mount. The M1888 did at least throw a pretty heavy capped AP shell (617 lbs.)

 

I always think of the Philippine batteries when the disappearing mounts are mentioned. I think some are still there today.

 

8-Inch Gun M1888 on M1918 railway mount

The US 8-inch gun M1888 was another of the first generation of modern US coast guns, and like its bigger 10-inch brother it lasted in service into WWII. During WWI, the US Army mounted 37 M1888s on barbette carriages on M1918 rail car mountings for use in France, and some of these pieces saw action there. When Canada needed counter-bombardment guns in 1941, we sent four M1888MII 8-inch guns on these rail mounts to strengthen the coastal defenses of British Columbia. Two guns went to sidings at Fairview Point near Prince Rupert BC, while two others were sent to Christopher Point near Victoria. The Christopher Point guns were removed from the rail cars and emplaced on concrete pads. The M1888 fired a 200 lb. HE shell and a 260 lb. capped AP round. Ranges quoted were from 23,400 to 25,000 yards, which was pretty good for such an old gun and much better than the 10-inch M1888. The attached photos all show the M1888/M1918 combination in US service, I could not find any showing the guns in Canada.

 

A few, yes. It's a place of pilgrimage for coast defense addicts.

 

Another place for a pilgrimage is Norway and CDSG did a tour there in 2013, all periods covered, so not just WW2. Lots of German WW2 batteries, including three large guns intact.

Four reports, Part 1 starts pg.7 Oslo Fiord: https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG WEBSITE UPDATES/CDSG NEWSLETTERS/CDSGN1113.pdf

Part 2 to Kristiansand starts pg 7 : https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG WEBSITE UPDATES/CDSG NEWSLETTERS/CDSGN514.pdf

Part 3 to Trondheim, starts pg 10: https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG WEBSITE UPDATES/CDSG NEWSLETTERS/CDSGN215.pdf

Part 4 to Harstad and Narvik, starts pg.12: https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG WEBSITE UPDATES/CDSG NEWSLETTERS/CDSGN515.pdf

 

In conjunction with David's excellent post, already had this to hand amongst my favourites.

It doesn't come close to an actual visit, but for a remote look it's not bad.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Engineering aside it is remarkable that once invaded in WW2 Germany committed such large resources to defending Norway, whereas there were only a few documented raids (Lofoten Islands and "hard water" come to mind). Very few naval attacks, from memory mainly in the Far North. Yes, there was a disinformation campaign to encourage them to keep troops there.

 

They were Anti Aircraft Guns, the Dual Purpose guns were put in to West Battery where they replaced the 9.2" guns.

There was a plan to put 5.25" Dual Purpose Batteries in the UK but only Park Battery in South Shields was completed before the scheme was shelved.

 

From what I have read online (accurate?) the Princess Anne 5.25" were not installed until after the war.

 

That is my understanding also. West Battery was certainly installed post war, see here SS74 West Battery – Defence of Gibraltar

 

7.5 Inch Gun Mark II/Vickers Mark C

Like some other odd things in British defense the 7.5 Inch Mark II gun was the result of a 'flap,' in this case alarm in pre Entente Cordiale days over the danger posed by Russian armored cruisers to overseas outposts. To match the 8-inch guns on the Russki vessels the new 7.5-inch Mark IIs were rushed out to India and installed in the defenses of Bombay and Karachi. The flap blew over, of course, but the guns stayed there through WWII and at least one example still survives on Elephanta Island at Bombay. The similar 7.5 Mark V was also installed on British armored cruisers and several examples of a Vickers commerical version of the Mark V, the Mark C, were emplaced to defend Quebec City. These, too, remained in service into WWII. The guns of this series fired 200 lb. shells (HE and capped AP). Max range was 15,571 on shipboard turret mountings with 15 degree elevation, I don't know what it was on the coastal mounts. [NOTE: A Canadian publication says the range of the Quebec guns was 14,000 yards.]

 

7.5 Inch Gun Mark VI

The 7.5 Inch Gun Mk VI was the last weapon of that bore in RN service. It was designed for the WWI Hawkins class cruisers, and neither the ships nor the guns proved entirely satisfactory to the navy so when WWII arrived some of the guns were declared surplus to RN requirements and made available for coastal defense. Some were installed at Fort Mispec at St. John, New Brunswick, others were emplaced at South Shields and in Mozambique, and several were given to the Dutch to defend Aruba. The Mark VI fired the same weight of ammunition as the earlier 7.5"s, but the mount had 30 degree elevation and so range was much better (21,110 yards).

 

Probably a bit off topic, but reading posts on here, there is some reference to revolvers and pistols issued to Police Forces.

So TTH and others, here goes..

I served in the New South Wales Police Force (Australia) from 1967 to 2003, mainly in the Sydney region. Firearms were personally issued to all members of the NSW Police. Prior to me joining, the police had .32 Webley and Scott automatic pistols, fondly known as 'the wobbly scott !. .32 Beretta auto pistols, .32 Browning auto pistols. When I joined in 1967, I was issued with a brand new in the box Smith and Wesson .38, Model 10 Police Special revolver. It was a good weapon, I fired it annually on range practice as it was compulsory to requalify annually. I also fired it 3 times in anger, but I won't elaborate. Female police officers were not issued with a firearm until the early 1970's as they were not allowed 'in the trenches' so to speak. Of course they now are. Some of the Smith and Wesson .38's were given to the Papua New Guinea Constabulary, but most went into the Pacific Ocean after being rendered inoperable.

You could leave your weapon in the gun safe at the police station or take it home if you had a safe or even a lockable cupboard back then ! If you drove a police vehicle to and from work (like I was on the motorcycles for 12 years) or went to and from work in uniform, you had to have your firearm.

In the mid 1990's two police officers, Spears and Addison, RIP, were shot and killed on the north coast of NSW, one of the reasons was they could not reload their .38 Smith and Wesson revolvers quickly enough, to defend themselves against a crazed gunman. So following police union intervention, shortly after that, we were issued with the Glock 17 Auto Pistol, such weapon still in use today. The NSW Police has 17,000 sworn officers so that is a lot of Glocks ! Special groups, Riot Squad etc also have the Mp5 sub machine gun, sniper rifles and various shot guns, like the Remington.

Hope this is of interest to some. Stay safe out there.

 

Thanks for the post. I am rather surprised to hear that the old Webley Met model automatic was still around so many years after the war. All sorts of odd guns showed up in police and security guard use in the Empire between 1900 and 1945. During those years I have read of Australian agencies with Colt Police Positives, Spanish Old Pattern .455's, and even the Mauser C96.

Sad news about the two officers. Our police, as you may know, stuck to revolvers into the 90s and shifted to autos for similar reasons. Even when revolvers were still standard, though, some officers here found ways to deal with things. New York plainclothes detectives often carried a snubby as a backup gun to their main weapon, the backup being known in the trade as a "New York reload."