Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by TTH, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    How about a WWI Tommy with a C96

    upload_2021-3-1_14-33-36.png

    Churchill called his 'The Ripper' during the Boer War.
     
    brithm, JimHerriot, Owen and 2 others like this.
  2. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    The C96 was used in small numbers by many combatants in WWI, including the Turks, Germans, Italians, Russians, and I think also the French. Churchill wasn't the only British officer who liked it, and since British officers could then purchase their own sidearms some carried C96s. Others came into Allied hands via capture from the Central Powers. In WWII, C96s were used by the Germans, Japs, and Soviets and apparently in quite small numbers by the British as well. For his book on British WWII small arms Ian Skennerton browsed through WO contracts and found some for the C96. In 1940 150 7.63mm C96 machine pistols (Model 712) were ordered from E. Grimard, a Belgian arms dealer. In January 1941 30 7.63mm Mauser C96s were obtained in Shanghai along with 10 7.63mm Astra pistols, a Spanish-made copy of the C96. Some police and other agencies in various places in the British Empire also picked up C96s along the way; the Queensland Mint and Treasury, for example, used the C96 as a guard weapon. The C96 was an expensive weapon, it was not made in huge numbers, and it was never adopted as first-line standard by any major armed force, but it was made for over 30 years and was popular worldwide with knowledgeable shooters who had the money to spend. Quite a few were brought back post-1918 to the US and Canada and probably other countries by returning veterans, and in America the Stoeger company in New York offered it in its catalogs right up to 1939. The C96 was particularly popular in Latin America, the Middle East, and above all the Far East. The Chinese were the greatest Mauser fans and aside from purchasing genuine C96s and Astra and other copies from Spain they also copied the design in their own factories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
    JimHerriot, stolpi and Dave55 like this.
  3. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    There were 'In Theatre' transfers in the Med. Theatre. There is a photo of an M2 variant during the invasion of Italy. Kew has docs. urging the UK to request more as the US moved unwanted stocks out. Whilst British user wanted more the high-ups seemed obsessed that we would have our own product 'soon'.
    THE INVASION OF ITALY SEPTEMBER 1943
     
    JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  4. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    The M14 Half Tracks were de-gunned and were either used with a basic seat kit or converted to command vehicles. There were semi official conversion instructions published in intelligence bulletins - I have only ever seen the one for adding a rear door for the ambulance conversion without 'the attached photographs'. Any help appreciated.
     
    JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  5. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    When the Canadians transferred from Italy to NW Europe (I am not near my notes) the brought their 75mm GMCs with them. At some point they converted M14s and M5s to the same configuration in Holland. I'm desperate to know whether the guns were moved or newly acquired and where the work was done. Asking on Canadian Forums have drawn a blank.
     
    JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  6. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    The original gun on the M3 GMC, if I am not mistaken, was the M1897A4, a much improved development of the classic French M1897. The US Army had a field gun version of this weapon on the M2 split trail carriage. That combination appeared in the US Army pre-Pearl Harbor, but it was still a fairly new weapon in US service and remained for some time as a stopgap until enough M2 105mm howitzers appeared to re-equip the field artillery. I am not sure if any of these field guns went overseas and into action with US crews. There was at one time a possibility that some were used by the British and Australians at Singapore but it now seems more likely that the weapons in question were M1916 75mm guns, a piece I have not yet discussed here. I have seen a screencap from a Pathe newsreel which shows what is allegedly a Belgian Congolese gun crew manning an M1897A4 field gun. The 75mm field guns shown in the Hyperwar sheets are not specified by type, which makes resolving these questions all the harder. The US Army may have been reluctant to release the 1897A4 field gun in 1940-41, but by 1944 there were enough 105s to go around so perhaps some 1897A4s did indeed get to Europe from the states so that the Canadians could create their own M3 GMCs. The only alternatives I can think of would be French 1897s and German Pak 97/38s, both of which would have been lying around, or maybe some spare M3 75mm guns. Is a puzzlement. Have you tried war diaries of Canadian ordnance or armored units?
     
    ceolredmonger, JimHerriot and Dave55 like this.
  7. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Was the door conversion for a White? I think all the International M5s and M9s (and M14s) already had a rear door. Not sure though.
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  8. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Yes, I'd seen that photo and it made me suspect that more M2s got into the British pipeline through theater transfer. This M2 also has an MG mounted, which some authorities state was not usual for half tracks in British service.
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  9. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    Half tracks. The door conversion was for M14 GMCconversions which had no rear door. Yes, the Canadian extemporised 75mm GMCs used the US made variant of the originally French gun. I have not been successful tracking down any data on source. I am aware of the Lend-Lease allocation however not got into where they went. A guess is they may have been 'acquired' from US training stocks however the trail is cold. I'll try to upload a photo...
     
    JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  10. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    Attached Files:

    Chris C, TTH and JimHerriot like this.
  11. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    Note rear corners, simple front wheel fenders and mine racks. These photos taken at the Dutch liberation parade. Not my copyright, study only (Sorry about orientation!).
     

    Attached Files:

    Chris C and JimHerriot like this.
  12. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Hope re-orientation isn't a liberty.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.

    index-162.jpeg
     
    BrianHall1963, Chris C, TTH and 2 others like this.
  13. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    At least some of them went to Armoured Car Regts as fire support vehicles. See here:-
    WarWheels.Net - British Armoured Cars In Europe: 1944-1945

    The AoS number 44 suggests an Armoured Car Regt. I can’t make out the background it is on but it should be green over blue with a narrow white strip at the top as here:-
    British Tank and Vehicle Markings - A Guide

    Production data from Autocar for all vehicles is here.
    Autocar in World War Two / WWII
     
    JimHerriot and ceolredmonger like this.
  14. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    Sorry, I should have pointed that the 75mm GMC were used as fire support in Recce Regiments. The regiment in question here is the Royal Canadian Dragoons. 1 Corps recce regiment (hence white bar on the AoS).
     
    Chris C, JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  15. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler


    www.canadiansoldiers.com
    Canadian-Army-halftrack-with-75-mm-Gun---MIKAN-No--3607690.jpg
    (Library and Archives Canada Photo, MIKAN No. 3607690)
     
    BrianHall1963, TTH and Dave55 like this.
  16. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    The site you got that image from is usually accurate, but not in this case. That photo shows an M3 GMC, not a T30 HMC. The T30 was also based on the M3 half track chassis, but it was armed with the short-barrelled M1A1 75mm howitzer. These vehicles were issued to the cannon companies of US infantry regiments and the assault gun platoons of tank and reconnaissance battalions for Operation TORCH. Some remained in service for a while in Italy, but they were soon phased out in favor of other equipment (M7 and M8 HMC and the towed 105mm M3 howitzer). Colonel William O. Darby's Ranger Force got hold of four T30s, presumably from an outfit which had just phased them out, and employed them at Anzio. After Ranger Force was destroyed at Cisterna the orphaned T30s migrated to 1st SSF, which employed them until it was disbanded in France. Full data on the T30 is at 75mm HMC T30 and an image is attached here for comparison with the M3 GMC. T30 HMC M1A1 75mm How.jpg
     
  17. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    TTH, I am to blame for the mistake: The picture shown can be found on Harold A. Skarup's website - twice.
    Here with the wrong designation
    Harold A. Skaarup web pages
    Here with the correct designation:
    Harold A. Skaarup web pages
    And I'm really not that familiar with US half-track vehicles that I would have been able to tell the difference.:whistle:
     
    TTH likes this.
  18. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Not blaming you at all, mistakes happen occasionally even in geekdom. There are so many variants of the German half tracks that I haven't even tried to learn them all.
     
  19. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Have you been able to access the regimental war diaries? Or that of their workshops? Which units were involved?
     
    ceolredmonger and TTH like this.
  20. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    That is an aim. Only the RCD as far as I am aware. Efforts so far have come to nought so far. On hold as I am flat out working vaccinating right now....
     
    Chris C and TTH like this.

Share This Page