No. 4 camp Thailand

Good morning
I am carrying out some research on my Grandad and have recently obtained his army service records, which confirm he was a POW at the above mentioned camp.
A family member has passed me a badge, see photo, which I am told was worn by my Grandad during his time as a prisoner.
Is anyone able to provide any information on the badge? I have searched online but cannot find anything similar.
Thank you in advance.

 

Welcome to the forum
hopefully forum members with and interest in that area will be along shortly to assist you

 

Welcome to the Forum.
I've not seen this before but I think you have posted the image upside down and it should look like this:


Can you post your grandfather's name and scans of any relevant parts of his Service Record - it may help.

Tim

 

What an interesting artefact. I look forward to learning more about it.

 

No. 4 camp was a 'Death Railway' camp at Kanburi (Kanchanburi), hence I suggest the railway truck like logo. There are a few threads on this site that might be of interest.

 

A very poignant item! My grandfather (a civil engineer and Private in the army of the Dutch East Indies - the KNIL) worked on the railway too. I do have a copy of his PoW card (attached). If that's not included in your grandfather's service records, you might be able to find it elsewhere?

I'm assuming your grandfather survived. Mine did, as did his wife and two children (including my father). Like all (non-Axis) Europeans, they were in one or more Japanese internment camps on Java. The youngest and last one of them passed away last week. Good luck with your search!

Edit: just had another quick search on the internet (I should dive into this seriously at one point!). See second attachment. Seems my grandfather also was in (same?) Camp No. 4 ("Kamp IV"). Any ideas where this camp was located? I know he was in "Changi" Internment Camp, Singapore, in March 1943, and from added document, it appears he was liberated in (or near?) Bankok.

 

8RB,

I did some research on the KNIL POWs in Thailand, perhaps it might help you? See: 'Top Secret' till 1996: March 1946 Japanese surrender on Bali

 

Thank you for your replies.
My Grandads name is Edward William Deall. Service No 907823
Gunner with Royal Artillery 118 Field Regiment.
Date of capture 15/02/1942.
I have the pow camp as 4D camp-Thailand.
Not sure if this info will help identify the badge?
Thanks again

 

ClioCup, Thank you for the photograph: I've not seen an example of such a badge before. I'll try and give an explanation of Camp IV with reference to war crimes trials. These trials provided a history of the railway within a few years of the end of the war.

For a summary of evidence in the substantial British minor war crimes case prosecuted in Singapore ( Kew National Archives file WO235/963 ) see the link below to a document from the online archives of the International Criminal Court. This was sent by the British to the United War Crimes Commission and it was eventually ( the UN archive was a closed archive for 60 years plus ) put online by the International Criminal Court ( aka "Legal-Tools" ). The summary gives an explanation of the construction of the railway.

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE ) held in Tokyo also received evidence concerning the Thai Burma railway.

The Japanese Government prepared their own history of the railway in the autumn of 1945 which papers can be found in WO235/963, in the Australian substantial minor war crimes case about the railway, and at the IMTFE.

For an understanding of "Camp IV" the Allies referred to these as "Groups". The Japanese used "IIII" rather than "IV" in the attached map, found in another file at Kew, in WO 325. Look for "IIII" to give an indication of the approximate position on the railway of Camp IV men. This map is a "fair copy" of the Japanese map. Where the key to the map says " Regular Employees about 100,000" it means civilians. Where it says "Prisoners of War about 550,000" it does not mean that number of men, but some measure of work unit.

To build the railway civilian as well as prisoners of war were used. POWs always said the civilians were treated far worse than they were, which is saying a lot. The British did bring two "minor" war crimes cases involving civilian workers.

John

https://www.legal-tools.org/doc/52113b/pdf/

 

Cliocup
Every far east POW had to fill in a liberation questionnaire which among things lists all the camps he was in, this link I believe is your grandad's.
Deall, E W
Andy

 

The sign/badge shown above seems to include a version of the standard Japanese Army symbol for a 'Field Motor Transport Depot'. It might be worth finding a Japanese speaker to translate the Kanji characters underneath.

 

The figure "550,000" is probably a version of "55,000". A more accurate ( extremely accurate ) figure of POW used by Japanese Thailand Administration is shown in the attached photo from the book "The Story of Changi" by Captain David Nelson. This book explains how the captured allied forces in Changi Jail, Singapore, managed to keep records of their comrades and their movements away from Changi Jail, also from Java. Many documents, or rolls, using any type of paper or writing implement that could be obtained ( very worn typewriter ribbons were used ) were compiled by the "BRE" or "Bureau of Record and Enquiry." These documents were released for view at the National Archives in April 2011. Japanese Thailand Administration received 62,231 men at some stage, so 55,000 is approximate.





The roll for 118 Field Regiment ( file WO 361/2092 at TNA ) has this:



Using the page above it shows that Gnr Deall was in "D" Force, hence "4D". He was sent "OVL" or "Overland" ( as opposed to "OVS" or by sea ) on Train 6, departing Changi on 23rd March 1943.

Another 1940's map shows where "IV" Group was ( from WO235/963 ):

 

I have it in the back of my mind that POWs at Serangon/Serangoon Camp (No.3 Camp on LQ) were employed on vehicle recovery and repair.

Tim

 

The Liberation Questionnaire has these camps in order:

Changi ( Singapore )

Towner Road (Singapore )

Serangon (Singapore )

Kinsayo about 172 kilo

Chungkai about 59 kilo

Tamuang about 34 kilo

Tamajo about 237 kilo

Nakom Patom near Bangkok

Mergui further south on the Kra Isthmus

Another map showing camps to the border with Burma.

 

ClioCup. The following may be of help/interest:
Death Railway
The Mergui Road, Burma | COFEPOW

Tim

 

Any idea if this would have applied also to non-British POW's (like my grandfather L.P. Jeltes)? He will have been liberated (in or near Bankok) by British troops.

 

I have to correct myself a little bit, apparently only half of the 56,000 known FEPOW's filled in the questionnaire which was usually done through interview. I don't see anything regarding your grandfather, the link below will take you to the full list.
COFEPOW
There is also a thread that has plenty of discussion about the liberation questionnaires.
FEPOW LIBERATION QUESTIONNAIRES
Andy

 

Hi. My mum's uncle Henry Pryce Jones was captured on 15th Feb 1942 in Singapore and ended up in 4D camp Thailand but died 19th Jul 1943 from Malaria aged 21. His service no was 5827271 corporal. Do any photos survive...

 

Kizzy. Welcome to the forum. "4D Camp" is a very general term ( probably from the digital publishers lists ) which refers to what the Allies called a "Group." According to information from files I have seen at The National Archives, Kew, and at the Suffolk Record Office, Bury St. Edmunds you are referring to a soldier with the service number 5827281 rather than the number you gave. His home address was in Brighton. He is commemorated on the Singapore Memorial but according to one of his fellow soldiers from the 4th Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment he died at a place on the Thailand railway generally called KInsayok. The Thai spelling will be different. He was captured in Singapore and was transported to Thailand on 31st October 1942 on train "R". See the maps I posted above for Kinsayok or Kinsayuk or ( at post 9 ) the Japanese version, Kinsaiyoku. As for photographs, try these experts in Thailand: TBRC Online: THE THAILAND-BURMA RAILWAY CENTRE
Good hunting, John

 

Good Afternoon,

I saw your post and did a little digging for you. I dont know how much you already have so I'll post all the links that I found here for you.

WO 345 Japanese Index Cards of Allied POWs 1942-1947
Page 1 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
2196: Prisoners of War, Far East: British POWs in Thailand & Saigon as of August 1945; Nominal Roll
Page 123 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
1987: Prisoners of War, Far East: British, 3 Group, Saigon; Americans, all Groups; British, 4 Group
Page 64 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WWII, British and Allied Prisoners of War held by the Japanese, 1941-1945
Deall, E W - WWII, British and Allied Prisoners of War held by the Japanese, 1941-1945 - Fold3

WO 392 POW Lists 1943-1945
23: British Prisoners of War Held in Japan or Japanese-Occupied Territory: A - D
Page 637 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
1979: Prisoners of War, Far East: Thailand POW Camp; Name List, as of 1 November 1944; Volume 1
Page 129 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
1954: Prisoners of War, Far East: Thailand POW Camp, Name List, as of 1 November 1944; Volume I
Page 128 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
2196: Prisoners of War, Far East: British POWs in Thailand & Saigon as of August 1945; Nominal Roll
Page 468 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
2169: Prisoners of War, Far East: British Military Personnel, No 4 Group, Singapore; Nominal Roll
Page 35 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
2172: Prisoners of War, Far East: Allied POW Camps in Thailand; Nominal Rolls
Page 82 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 361 Casualities and Missing Personnel 1939-1945
2070: Prisoners of War, Far East: Parties Transferred Over Seas and Overland from Singapore, 1943
Page 13 UK, WWII, Allied Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 - Fold3

WO 417/65 Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1214 - 1235
1943 Aug 17 - 1943 Sep 10
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO417/065/0136&parentid=GBM/WO417/0577267

WO 417/97 Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1854 - 1877
1945 Sep 10 - 1945 Oct 06
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO417/097/0321&parentid=GBM/WO417/1069050

Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/rec...000-907999/00088&parentid=GBM/ROYALART/795326

Hope this is some help for you.

Regards,

Gareth