New Weapon For British Army

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by CL1, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Bring back the SLR!!!
     
  3. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Moved this to postwar.

    Interesting bit of kit - I remember when the SLR was discontinued there was a feeling that 5.56 might not be powerful enough for certain operations. All these years later seems to have been proved true.
     
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Thanks Paul

    your right
    I did read an article about the American army change to M16 in the Vietnam war
    Many troops on the ground prefered the greater firepower of the 7.62mm
     
  5. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    What goes round comes round, comes to mind!
    did'nt they learn anything from WW2
    British 303 Enfield
    German 7.92mm Mauser
    Russian 7.62mm Mosin
    USA .30
    Many USA Vets from Vietnam brought back captured German 7.92mm Mauser K98K's refurbished by the Russians and supplied to the Gooks.
    Rob.
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I see the Mail is printing rubbish again :lol:

    It means insurgents - who use 7.62mm ammunition for their AK47s - back off and shoot at British troops from greater distances. Half of all battles in Helmand are fought between 300 and 900 yards.

    Having fired an AK on several occasions I'd like to see someone hit a target over 300 meters with one !

    Here's me with my Chinese Variant proff'd from the Iraqi Army which now proudly hangs in my old mess.
    [​IMG]

    The chap in the forground looks like he is carrying a 5.56 AR10 Variant (Missing forsight)which suggests and looking at his helmet they are UKSF Para's. Although I would have thought it would have either a SUSAT or ACOG sighting system fitted to it unless he is using it in a flexible sniper role.

    Whilst the A1 had it's short comings, like stoppages for example the A2 is a far superior variant IMO compaired to the A1 and I never had a problem with it on operations, exercises and the range. I recall it did stop quite a few Iraqi's in 2003.

    I suspect the Mail is making something out of nothing a few weapons being ordered for a specialist role. If they were going to Battalions they would have ordered a whole lot more than the article suggests.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  7. Ropi

    Ropi Biggest retard of all

    Nice! I never really trusted 5.56 ammo, I prefer 7.62x39mm and larger.
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I suspect the Mail is making something out of nothing a few weapons being ordered for a specialist role. If they were going to Battalions they would have ordered a whole lot more than the article suggests.

    Cheers
    Andy
    I did think that the number was fairly low - 440 wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of the overall number of troops deployed.
     
  9. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    I remember reading of a a gurkha who took four or five 5.56 rounds in Borneo:unsure: and survived.Drew when you say UKSF Para do you mean Special Reconissance Regiment?
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I did think that the number was fairly low - 440 wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of the overall number of troops deployed.

    They will have to keep around half that number back in the UK at depots for training purposes and range days.

    There was talk about following the Canadians and Dutch and using the Demarco when all the problems came out with the A1 rifle. It was decided that it would be better to modify the rifle rather than get rid of it completely.

    I believe there was some mention of keeping the British Army's assualt rifle British too. However I believe the A2's parent company is Heckler and Koch.
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I remember reading of a a gurkha who took four or five 5.56 rounds in Borneo:unsure: and survived.Drew when you say UKSF Para do you mean Special Reconissance Regiment?

    I left as the SF Orbat was changing/changed but I recall one of the 3 Parachute Regiments was being attached to SF for support purposes. I believe this was decided after how they worked together in Sierra Leone.

    The MOD was setting up a UKSF support unit when I left consisting of Logistics, Engineers, REME and the like.

    I know the SBS have closer ties than ever with the SAS now and they recruit members from all forces now rather than exclusively from the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. There has been smutterings of talk of posting them to Hereford and eventually disolving them into the SAS as a Boat Troop.

    So make of that what you will :lol:

    I still think they are Para's. ;)
     
    wtid45 likes this.
  12. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    Certainly every ex-Squaddie I have ever talked to has spoken highly of the SLR, amongst others things that if you hit someone with it then theres no doubt about whether they're going down or not. Am I right in thinking that one of the SLR's drawbacks was its length and that it wasnt ideal for FIBUA?
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Correct.

    I suspect those that changed from a Lee Enfield to the SLR will say they peferred the Lee Enfield and when the A2 is changed the same will happen then.
     
  14. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    I left as the SF Orbat was changing/changed but I recall one of the 3 Parachute Regiments was being attached to SF for support purposes. I believe this was decided after how they worked together in Sierra Leone.

    The MOD was setting up a UKSF support unit when I left consisting of Logistics, Engineers, REME and the like.

    I know the SBS have closer ties than ever with the SAS now and they recruit members from all forces now rather than exclusively from the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. There has been smutterings of talk of posting them to Hereford and eventually disolving them into the SAS as a Boat Troop.

    So make of that what you will :lol:

    I still think they are Para's. ;)
    Thanks for the info I owe you reps when it lets me:D
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Another point of note is quite a few of the A2 had the RIS (rail integrated system)fitted to them and slightly longer ago back in 2002/3 sections were equiped with the UGL (underslung grenade launcher). I just can't see it being a blanket change more likely to be another tool to a sections aresenal.

    UGL
    [​IMG]

    SA80 A2 RIS fitted with a suppressor
    [​IMG]
     
  16. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    If you look at it, the choice of infantry weapons for the British Army says a lot. The historical reliance on the rifle was apparently down to the top brass wanting to keep the emphasis on single, aimed shots. I have read documents talking about how difficult it was to get the Sten gun accepted, as there were worries that it would be used 'like a gangster gun'. Never mind that the Lee Enfield was too long for house-clearing.

    Then when we go post-war, and with the Army's main role fighting in on the Northern European plain in nice big open spaces, something like the SLR went back to the single, aimed shot principle.

    Am I right in thinking that the switch to 5.56 was part of NATO standardisation on that size for main infantry weapons?
     
  17. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Can´t the SA80 be re-barrelled? I love the way it looks :D
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Yep again..I did mean to mention the standard NATO round.

    Even the Russians use a NATO round in some of their Assault Rifles.
     
  19. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Long time since I’ve dredged the memory cells on this subject, but I used to quite interested in the debate; will stress though I’ve no firsthand experience and apologise for the below ramblings in advance.

    Post WW2 the British Army began work on a new rifle that became the EM2 (Enfield Model), chambered for a 6.5-mm round. It used the bullpup configuration that placed the magazine behind the trigger assembly, incorporated a carrying handle and was fitted with an optical sight. Experience during WW2 convinced most armies that rifles firing 7.62-mm to 7.92-mm ammunition also suitable for machine guns was counter productive. Gun battles were rarely conducted beyond 500m, so giving a soldier a weapon with a lethal range out to three or so times that distance was unnecessary. Likewise these calibres were hard to adapt to semiautomatic and fully automatic weapons (only the M1 Garand really bucked the trend in that respect), and the recoil made it harder for conscripts to master the weapons. The EM2 used an intermediate round, effective out to the perceived combat ranges of approx 500m, and drew in part from the German Sturmgewehr that emerged during 1943.

    The EM2 never made it into service of course, generally blamed on the lack of enthusiasm from the US, who could churn out 0.30-cal ammunition till the end of time it appeared. I’m sure there were also technical problems associated with the bullpup design and the new ammunition, but whatever the reasons the project was shelved. The US adapted its .30-08 cal round to a 7.62-mm x 51-mm version, with reduced range and recoil and a shorter cartridge case. That was adopted as the NATO standard early on, even so the old Rifle No.4 was still in service for Suez in 1956! The British adopted the Self Loading Rifle chambered for the 7.62/51, pressed on with their belief in optical sights courtesy of the SUIT(?), while most NATO armies went for something from FN or HK (FN also of course providing the SLR).

    When the US went to war in Vietnam, the M14 firing the 7.62/51 faced up against the AK47. I think it was the USAF who had issued a requirement for a lightweight rifle for use in guard duties, and there were a few competing designs such as the Stoner and AR-15 knocking around by the mid-1960s. The 5.56-mm allowed for a much lighter rifle, and one capable of controlled automatic fire, both of which fitted needs in SEA. Can’t recall when the M16 was adopted as the standard US weapon, but it got blooded during the era of the ‘big battles’ in 1968 I think. That threw up the irony of the US having switched to a new round while the rest of NATO used the one they’d previously endorsed…

    The change allowed the old EM2 project to resurface, with a new weapon chambered for a 4.85-mm round. NATO held trials for new options and, perhaps unsurprisingly, the winner was the US 5.56-mm x 45-mm, improved from the previous version. The British weapon was heavily adapted and became the L85A1 firing the newly approved 5.56/45, joined by the L86A1 (plus a few other names, not all printable I think). The 5.56/45 was supposed to address many of the problems encountered in action with the earlier 5.56/39(?), such as inability to engage much over 300m and numerous stories of failure to drop targets when hit. The M16A2 was supposed to be lethal to around 800m with the revised ammunition.

    As ever though, by the time equipment appears the situation had moved on. Weapons intended for use in European or SEA terrain find themselves being used in the desert or mountains, where ranges tend to be slightly longer. Last I heard, Sections were using L85A2s, backed up by the L86A2 as more of an extended range rifle than a LSW, plus the M249/ FN Minimi for automatic firepower. The situation is so fluid that things have likely changed again, one reason I gave up trying to keep pace with ‘moderns’ and concentrated on WW2! If the Army is now bringing in a new 7.62-mm rifle, it will probably supplement the existing mix of weapons. Those old GPMGs were supposed to be banished to Support Coy when the L86 was introduced, but they were reintroduced to Platoons years back. Assault rifles and same calibre squad automatics both lack range and weight of fire in some circumstances, while 7.62-mm rifles and GPMGs are heavy, long and awkward for troops travelling in APCs and helicopters. The ‘ideal’ calibre round is still waiting to be discovered it seems!

    Done now, work today was a b!tch and I needed a diversion, so back to the better informed!
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    There are (somewhere) some pictures of the 'first' SA80 on the net somewhere from the 1950's. It always striked me as looking quite weird with wooden furniture. I first saw it about 10 years ago in a Soldier Magazine.

    Here it is:
    [​IMG]
     

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