New to WW2Talk and looking for assistance

I'm researching my late Father's wartime service based around letters he sent home to his mother. He was enlisted to the RASC on 11/12/1941 at the age of 27. By this time he was married with an 18 month old child. Am I right in thinking that from 1939 they enlisted younger men first and gradually moved up the age range? I am trying to understand why he was not enlisted until the age of 27.

His service number was T/10677110 for the first year of his army service. I understand the T stands for transport while serving in the RASC. He was transferred, however, to the RAOC on 01/10/1942, but the T prefix remained until it was dropped after 12 months of service. Can anyone shed light on this T prefix in use while he was with both the RASC and RAOC?

I recently obtained a copy of my Dad's service record - see uploaded transcribed copy of his service in the UK. I've numbered the entries for ease of reference. I've managed to decipher a number of the abbreviations, but am stuck with the following:

No 1 - No 9 Training BN (D) - what does the "D" stand for?
No 4 - Posted to WE - what does WE stand for?
No 9 - Granted WTPP - what do these initials stand for?
No 11 - Posted "C" Park 14 MT VRD - what does MT stand for?
No 12 - Gtd embark leave with R.A. @ LR. Is RA = Royal Artillery or something else, and what does LR stand for?
No 17 - Att. I.R.C. Norton Barracks. What does IRC stand for?
No 18 - Att for RA to 4 DTB. What does DTB stand for?
No 20 - 15 VRD C.T. BA. What does the C.T. BA stand for?

My Dad was based at Okeover Hall, Ashbourne from December 1942 before being sent overseas, yet this is excluded from his service record. See uploaded photo outside the Hall taken on 14-01-1943. Would there be a particular reasons for this omission, or is it merely a clerical error?

I am interested in getting copies of any War Diaries that may exist for his Units while serving in the UK. Because I live in the north east of Scotland I would like to enlist the assistance of members to carry out a search on my behalf at Kew. I will be writing to the RAOC forum for similar assistance in relation to my Dad's overseas service.

Wiffer

 

Wifer -

In terms of callup - you use the word 'enlisted' which confused me a bit as that implies a voluntary act - you either enlisted or the army called you up as it had your records from an initial interview, then sent for you when it decided. Yes, younger people were called up first in general, but it wasn't just a case of age but could be geography, prior circumstances such as a trade or occupation, previous military service, marital status. In the end, when you were called, you went. This little article from

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a1138664.shtml

is useful

"The Emergency Powers (Defence Act) of August 1938 had empowered the British government to take certain measures in defence of the nation and to maintain public order. The Defence Act contained around 100 measures aimed at calling up military reservists and Air Raid Precautions (ARP) volunteers for mobilisation. It's estimated that about half a million people also volunteered to join the ARP, the Territorial Army (TA) and the RAF Volunteer Reserve. But volunteers were not enough.

The Military Training Act of 27 April 1939 responded to Hitler's threat of aggression in Europe. All British men aged 20 and 21 who were fit and able were required to take six months' military training. Even so, when war broke out the British Army could muster only 897,000 men, compared to France's five million.Another act of parliament was necessary to increase the numbers. The National Service (Armed Forces) Act made all able men between the ages of 18 and 41 liable for conscription; as part of the legislation it was decided that single men would be called to war before married men.

Men aged 20 to 23 were required to register on 21 October 1939 - the start of a long and drawn-out process of registration by age group, which only saw 40-year-olds registering in June 1941. By the end of 1939 more than 1.5 million men had been conscripted to join the British armed forces. Of those, just over 1.1 million went to the British Army and the rest were split between the Royal Navy and the RAF."

Use the search function on the forum for 'abbreviations' or "service records abbreviations" and you'll turn up various references including whole glossaries of terms - if you've already done that, wait a bit and some knowledgeable people will be along eventually and have a try at deciphering the records. As a word of warning - and veterans have agreed with me on this point - the military in any incarnation, particularly before the use of digital technology and efficient means of storage and reproduction of written material would often just make it up - the army has a form for everything - and an acronym - usually just to save time and ink - it's not always clear or translate-able (appalling English sorry).

You either haven't (or can't at the moment due to forum changes) uploaded the actual scan of the records, so I can only have a go:

BN(D) D is often Depot - as in Depot Battalion - i.e. not on active service but training or reinforcement
WTPP - with travel permit provided
As VRD is Vehicle Reserve Depot, MT is usually Motor Transport
WE is usually War Establishment
CTBA - ceased to be attached - like SOS or TOS struck off strength, Taken on strength - one of about a dozen ways you could leave or join a unit

We really need to see the original document rather than your rendition of it - handwriting, bad typewriters, specks on the paper, they can all change the look and meaning of acronyms.

Good luck,

Brian

 

Hi Wiffer, Welcome to ww2Talk.

The time men were called up depended on various factors besides ages, such as what job he was doing at the time. Even his name might have a bearing on it as Jones would be called up before Wright.

As far as I can make out the T. Prefix was for Army Service Corps (Before they became Royal) numbers denoting New Army Horse. (from WW1). So as time went on the T was no longer applicable. So the T would be dropped leaving 10677110.

Army Records. May have been better to have posted pic of page showing dates etc.
But never mind here’s my interpretation.

No 1 - No 9 Training BN (D) - what does the "D" stand for?
Driver

No 4 - Posted to WE - what does WE stand for?
War Establishment (Possible Porton Down for gas mask training).

No 9 - Granted WTPP - what do these initials stand for?
Could be with travel permit provided or Welfare Time Private and Personal.
Basically Compassionate leave. (Possible sickness of Wife or Child).

No 11 - Posted "C" Park 14 MT VRD - what does MT stand for?
Motor Transport Vehicle Reserve Depot .

No 12 - Gtd embark leave with R.A. @ LR. Is RA = Royal Artillery or something else, and what does LR stand for?
Granted Embarkation with Ration Allowance at Lower rate.

No 17 - Att. I.R.C. Norton Barracks. What does IRC stand for?
Possibly I.T.C. Infantry Training centre.

<Norton Barracks: In 1939 the function of the Depot was still to train recruits and administer the regimental home. Early in 1940 a principle was established by which training divided into �Primary� training, covering the first six weeks of service, and �Corps� training, which concentrated on the more advanced training for infantry as such. To meet requirements the 23rd Infantry Training Centre (I.T.C.) was set up at Norton with two Primary Training Companies and two Corps Training Companies, the old Depot dwindling to a small Depot party and reduced to a strength of four officers and a few other ranks. Initially the number swarming into the barracks was so great that the old Jam factory (now Morgan Crucible) was requisitioned and a hutted camp built which included large Officers' and Sergeants' Messes, two O.R's cookhouses, two parade grounds and M.T. garages.>

No 18 - Att for RA to 4 DTB. What does DTB stand for?
Attached for (maybe From) Royal Artillery to 4 DTB (should be 4 TBD.) 4 Training Battalion Driver.

No 20 - 15 VRD C.T. BA. What does the C.T. BA stand for?
15 Vehicle reserve depot, Clothing and Textiles British Army.

My Dad was based at Okeover Hall, Ashbourne from December 1942 before being sent overseas, yet this is excluded from his service record.
As there was no official army camp there, and it would have been a staging camp/base before embarkation there would be no need to mention it in the records.

 

Thanks Brian and RCG for your helpful responses. I used the word "enlisted" as that is what is used on his service record. He would most certainly have been "called up". The family name is Robertson so pretty far down the alphabet. He was also a stone mason, and there is one theory that his employer - Aberdeen City Corporation had him and other masons involved in work associated with the defence of the City. How much truth there is to this, I don't know.

I tried uploading a transcripted version of my Father's service record relating to when he was in the UK along with a photograph, but it seems not to have worked. I can't see a way of doing this after the event.

Thanks again

Wiffer

 

Could be the changes we're going through on the forum - but as you can see from our posts, without the document it's difficult. Someone will be able to help I'm sure.

 

View attachment Service Record App D - 2e.jpg.zip View attachment Service Record App D - 2c.jpg.zip


Thanks Owen for the uploading guide. I am attaching part of his service record relating to my Dad's service while in the UK and with the R.A.S.C. I plan to post a further request for assistance in relation to his overseas service when he was with the R.A.O.C. and attach the relevant parts of the service record on another occasion.

From his letters home I can tell the dates when he was in the "Field" would be the period he was based in Kent - Ramsgate and Mystole. Apart from the period he was in Kent - March to July 1942 - the town where he was based was included as part of the address, whereas while in Kent he quoted his address as "Home Forces", and I understand this was because of the need by the Forces for greater security while operating in this highly vulnerable part of England. Any comment on this?

Would anyone know the nature of the offence - AFB122 - on 31st May 1942, which resulted in my Dad's pay being docked 10/-?

I am planning to visit next month from the north east of Scotland the towns where he was based in England -
Alfreton, Derbyshire
East Kirkby, Nottinghamshire
Claycross, Derbyshire
Rochdale, Lancaster
Lancaster (Quernmore Park, Caton)

Does anyone have information on the location of Army operations in these towns during this time? For example, he passed his test as a Grade III driver in Claycross. (He got further training as a driver in Ramsgate). It would be interesting to learn the location of the army bases. In Alfreton, he was billeted at Lenton's Cafe, so I assume he travelled to some other location in Alfreton each day. On the other hand, in Rochdale he was billeted at Swailes Mill on Molesworth Street, [No 8 Sub Park. Sec, 15. V.R.D. Coy] where I am assuming he was billeted and received training at the same place.

Comments on the above and my Dad's service records generally while he was in the UK would be much appreciated.

As per my first post, I am keen to find out if there are War Diaries relating to the Units to which my Dad was attached, and whether I can get assistance in obtaining information from Kew.

Wiffer

 

I am adding a further part of my Dad's service record and the file was too large to include in the last post.

Wiffer

 

Thanks - your 'CTBA' is definitely 'ceased to be attached' will have a closer look when I get a moment.