Naval Minesweeping GSM ~ Most Likely Date, Place & Ship

Hi all,

Looking into the service of JX127453 C. E. Randall. (He was a crew member of the HMS Manxman when it was torpedoed).

his record shows that he was awarded the Naval GSM in October 1952 by which time he had left the navy.

I can only presume this award was back dated. I'm trying to find from the attached record what the most likely area and posting/ship he was on at the time to qualify for the award.



(Should I be in the wrong forum then please let me know and also would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.)

Many thanks

Dan

 

Hi,

FWR has this about clasps for the Naval GSM -

Information About The Naval General Service Medal (NGSM) of 1915 - Forces War Records

Think you’d have to research all his ships 1945 until discharge. Hugh MacLean be able to assist.

Steve

 

There is no specific identification of the qualifying ship in the service record. The clasp 'Minesweeping 1945-51' was awarded for six months' service afloat engaged in naval minesweeping after 3 September 1945. Approved areas of operations were: East Indies, South West Pacific, China coast, Mediterranean, Red Sea, North Sea, Europe and British Isles. Approximately 4750 of these clasps were issued.
I note from October 1949, he was shown on the record as being attached to a couple of dockyard groups (Abercrombie/Neptune) and he may have been attached to a qualifying ship during that period, there is no way to tell from the record.

I would suggest you make an enquiry to the MOD medal office with regard to the minesweeping clasp.

The service record online is not his full record, it is still with the MOD, and omits specifics that may be found by a search of his Pay & Victualling Ledger so you may wish to contact the MOD about that. The P&V Ledger may provide detail of where he was actually serving as opposed to just the shore-side accounting base that is listed.
Regards
Hugh

 

Many thanks Hugh ... I've ordered up his full record a couple of months back and still waiting but hopefully not too long.

One other question ... on the Medal return slips with regards to WW2 issues ... what does the R mean underneath the medal listing?

For example the wife's Grandad served on HMS Chiddingfold & Quantock.

His entitlement show a Tick underneath 39/45, Atlantic, Italy & War Medal ...

Underneath F&G Star there is an 'R'

I was thinking this means the clasp/star was rejected?

What threw me was that another guys medals are for sale on a well known auction site and has his Stars but on his medal form displayed it denotes R below both F&G and Pacific sections ... in the photo of the medals he has both clasps attached to his Atlantic and Burmas Stars???

Many thanks

Dan

 

Shot in the dark….

If he was entitled to the Medal perhaps R means Rosette as the physical medal couldn’t be awarded?

I think the Rosette was worn on the Medal ribbon (available from 1945) whilst in uniform with the bar worn on the ribbon when the medal was issued from 1948 onwards.

At the end of WW1 a rosette was issued to be worn on the medal ribbon to represent the bar to the 1914 Star.

Steve

 

Yes, that's a pretty good shot in the dark Steve
Where 'R' is is listed on the medal entitlement card, the subject was awarded the bar (clasp) to that specific medal as opposed to the medal itself.

So, if he was awarded the Atlantic Star first and the France & Germany Star later he would be entitled to wear the Atlantic Star with the France and Germany Clasp but not both medals. Similarly, if he was awarded the France & Germany Star first and subsequently qualified for the Atlantic Star he would wear the F&G Star with Atlantic Clasp but not both medals.

So Dan to answer your question -

He was awarded the Atlantic Star first and he took part in the Normandy landings later and was also subsequentially awarded the France and Germany Star but is only entitled to wear the first star earned - the Atlantic Star but he is entitled to wear the F & G Clasp on the Atlantic Star to denote his entitlement to that medal also.

Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation Hugh.

Every day is a school day

Steve

 

Many thanks to you both Hugh and Steve really appreciate it ... better get on to to purchasing a F&G clasp for the set I made up for her Grandad.

Know I also know what to look our for regarding the R when Randall's record turns up. (He was my mates Grandad but went to another branch of the family some years back. Think Randall is looking like 10 or so gongs at present including a single trip to Murmansk with Manxman to gain to Arctic Star

 

Also trying to establish what would've been engraved on the side of his Naval GSM so as to get a nice copy done.

Moreso the rank when it was dispatched in 1952. Would it have been made out to AB his formal rank or T/PO as he last served (and for quite sometime according to his record as a Temporary Petty Officer ... I don't know what the C in brackets means after the last rank of PO (Ty) (C) 4yrs.

I was thinking the NGSM engraving would possibly be as follows from other examples I've seen

C/JX127453 C.E.RANDALL T/P.O. R.N.

 

I found the following text in an Admiralty document about Radar and Radio Mechanics, whilst researching my Fathers naval wartime service. May explain your (C) I think.

Best regards,

Steve

In mid-1943 the original intention of training all radio mechanics to service both W/T and radar
equipment was finally abandoned and it was decided that only Chief Petty Officers would have
to be so qualified. A start was made in withdrawing Radio Mechanics (R) and (W) from sea and
these were given a two months' course to qualify them professionally for Chief Petty Officer.
Mechanics thus qualified became P.O. Radio Mechanic (C) until advanced to Chief Petty Officer.
For this course P.O. Radio Mechanics (R) were instructed in W/T, and P.O. Radio Mechanics (W)
were instructed in radar.