Murders during the war

Hiya paul Johnson


Just as a matter of interest, are all the people on the bottom of your post, family members?

Paulyb102

 

Hi Paul,

No. These ladies were all murdered whilst serving with the WAAF. Sadly, they were the victims of sex crimes committed by Allied soldiers and Airmen (some of whom were hung). Their files exist in the WO309 Series in the PRO.

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

 

Hi paul j

When i saw those names at the bottom of your list, i presumed wrongly that they were (murdered) by a doodlebug or V-2, it,s rare you hear of any types of deaths from ww2 in other instances such as these, well done for highlighting their memory.
I suppose many hundreds like them in the u.k. also perished

Paul

 

Originally posted by paulyb102@Jan 11 2005, 07:58 PM
Hi paul j

When i saw those names at the bottom of your list, i presumed wrongly that they were (murdered) by a doodlebug or V-2, it,s rare you hear of any types of deaths from ww2 in other instances such as these, well done for highlighting their memory.
I suppose many hundreds like them in the u.k. also perished

Paul
[post=30630]Quoted post[/post]
They're not alone. The magazine "After the Battle" has articles on justice in WW2, which include cases where American or British troops raped and/or murdered British or French women, and drew the death penalty for the crime. While Eddie Slovik was the only American shot for desertion in WW2, a number of GIs were hanged in Europe for the relatively ordinary crimes of murder and rape. They are buried in Plot E at Oise-Aisne Cemetery in France, which is a secret and inaccessible plot behind the superintendent's quarters. So while the public can visit the immaculate white graves of Joyce Kilmer and his buddies from the Second Battle of the Marne in WW1 in Plots A through D, you need permission from the American Battle Monuments Commission to visit Plot E, where the dead lie under flat black tombstones...with no flag flying. Those are the wages of murder and rape.

 

Paul,

I know that you have an interest in the D-Day casualties. One of the ladies mentioned was Iris Miriam Deeley who was murdered by Gunner Ernest James Harman Kemp of the Royal Artllery near Well Hall Railway Station, Eltham on Valentines Day 1944. He was hung at Wandsworth Prison on the 6th June 1944, probably just as some of his comrades were landing on the beaches of France. His name is recorded on the Brookwood Memorial, I assume beacuse his body was cremated.

Regards

PAUL J

 

The normal thing with any execution in a British prison would be for the person to be buried in a virtually unmarked grave within the prison. I belive there was some kind of marker so they knew where the grave was, but no headstone or similar.

There were, of course, a number of American military executions at Shepton Mallet prison in Somerset, which was taken over by American forces during the war.

And when I figure out how to do it, I will try to split this into two separate topics.

 

Originally posted by angie999@Jan 15 2005, 10:56 AM
The normal thing with any execution in a British prison would be for the person to be buried in a virtually unmarked grave within the prison. I belive there was some kind of marker so they knew where the grave was, but no headstone or similar.

[post=30679]Quoted post[/post]

the graves were marked by the prisoners initials marked on the wall

 

Originally posted by angie999@Jan 15 2005, 10:56 AM

And when I figure out how to do it, I will try to split this into two separate topics.
[post=30679]Quoted post[/post]

Done.

 

Was rape a capital offence during this period? I'm not too sure it was in UK civil law, but perhaps US military law when on operations?

There was also that serial murdering RAF chap who was caught after leaving his respirator at the scene of a crime.

Richard

 

Originally posted by angie999@Jan 15 2005, 10:56 AM
There were, of course, a number of American military executions at Shepton Mallet prison in Somerset, which was taken over by American forces during the war.

[post=30679]Quoted post[/post]

As far as I can establish, there were 18 US military executions at Shepton Mallet in WWII, including two by firing squad, 20 year old Alex Miranda who shot his sergeant, on 30th May 1944 and Benjamin Pyegate who had stabbed a fellow soldier to death, on 28th November 1944. It is possible that other US personnel were hanged at British operated prisons - one web source hints at this without giving details - but the total probably was these 18.

My husband was once shown what was said to be the former wartime condemned cell at Shepton Mallet. This was actually a room in a house across the road from the prison, which, he was told, had been taken over by the US military. Apparently, the condemned prisoner would be taken over to the prison to be hanged. Is anybody able to confirm this (or otherwise)? It has always seemed doubtful to us.

Here is a link to an academic paper on the subject:

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/dp/dppap...l.dirty.details

And another link (this one contradicts my condemned cell comments):
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/sheptonm.html

 

Originally posted by DirtyDick@Jan 16 2005, 10:06 AM
Was rape a capital offence during this period? I'm not too sure it was in UK civil law, but perhaps US military law when on operations?

There was also that serial murdering RAF chap who was caught after leaving his respirator at the scene of a crime.

Richard
[post=30693]Quoted post[/post]
Yes, rape was a hanging offense in the US Army. Nearly all of the offenses for which American troops drew the death penalty were crimes that would draw serious penalties under civilian law, like murder. However, the Army regarded rape as a hanging offense, probably because of its damaging impact on the Army's reputation as a liberating force. Rape and murder drew the rope rather than the firing squad to add to the dishonor and ignominy of the manner of execution. The firing squad was reserved for military offenses like desertion and mutiny. While I know about the Eddie Slovik case, I don't know if other GIs were shot for other offenses. Slovik was the only American shot for desertion since the Civil War, and his case became a celebrated book and TV movie.

 

When the Anericans were stationed in New Zealand there were some terrible crimes. A 14 year old girl was raped by 6 black soldiers and another girl was raped and murdered. Some Americans in civilian clothes robbed a Post Office and got away with it. The story was that rapists and deserters were taken out to sea and shot. I never believed this until several years ago I met a former Marine here who had come over for a reunion. I asked him if it was true. He said that his brother had taken part in one of the shootings and it was true although officially denied. Next of kin informed lost at sea etc. I have tried to find documents relating to any of this but cannot. However in wartime its easy to hide such things. I do believe that several Americans were killed here for crimes of rape and murder and that it was officially kept quiet to avoid a backlash by the civilian population. I am happy to be proved wrong though.

 

Originally posted by sappernz@Jan 19 2005, 12:18 AM
When the Anericans were stationed in New Zealand there were some terrible crimes. A 14 year old girl was raped by 6 black soldiers and another girl was raped and murdered. Some Americans in civilian clothes robbed a Post Office and got away with it. The story was that rapists and deserters were taken out to sea and shot. I never believed this until several years ago I met a former Marine here who had come over for a reunion. I asked him if it was true. He said that his brother had taken part in one of the shootings and it was true although officially denied. Next of kin informed lost at sea etc. I have tried to find documents relating to any of this but cannot. However in wartime its easy to hide such things. I do believe that several Americans were killed here for crimes of rape and murder and that it was officially kept quiet to avoid a backlash by the civilian population. I am happy to be proved wrong though.
[post=30746]Quoted post[/post]
I'm not surprised to hear that story. Veterans of the US Third Army also claim that deserters in that force were shot, and their demises covered up. In wartime, especially a world-encompassing war like "The Big One," people with even a sliver of power can get away with all kinds of misdeeds, which in turn generate more misdeeds. First you have the vicious rape, followed by the vicious execution at sea. However, the other point in this story is that the accused were black, and this was a time when racism in America was at its height and standardized. Black men in America were often lynched if accused (even falsely) of molesting or harassing white women. At the same time, the segregated Army and schools of America discriminated against black men. Many of the black draftees were barely literate, consigned to menial jobs, and treated badly. This led to what the US Army's official history "The Employment of Negro Troops," euphemistically calls "social problems."

 

Getting back to the UK home front, I have made a comparison of executions for murder in both world wars, plus the decades before and after each. In both cases I have treated the first year of the war (1914 and 1939) as pre-war, as most of the executions in those years were for pre-war murders. These are the average yearly figures:

1905 - 1914 - 12.0
1915 - 1918 - 8.0
1919 - 1928 - 15.5

Therefore, the WWI years appear less violent on the domestic murder front than the decades before or after.

1930 - 1939 - 7.4
1940 - 1945 - 13.3
1946 - 1955 - 15.0

Therefore, the WWII years appear to be on a rising trent from the 1930s "low", but in no way exceptional compared to the four peacetime decades shown. Therefore, the conclusion is, I think, that the war had little or no effect on the murder rate, although it would be interesting to know whether the wartime conditions made it more or less likely that the Home Secretary would grant a reprive.

The one oddity in the 1945 data is that on 6 October, five men with "German sounding" names were executed at Pentonville and it is logical to conclude that they were all involved in the same crime. I will try and trace details later.

Interestingly, 1955 was the year when Ruth Ellis was hanged, the last woman to do so in Britain. The following year there were no executions and from then until abolition the total was never more than 7 in a year. The execution of Ellis was, many believe, a significant landmark on the road to the abolition of capital punishment in Britain.

Note: the above figures exclude people executed for spying and treason and here is the WWII list of those:

Jose Waldeburg and
Carl Meier 10th December, 1940
Charles Kieboom 17th December, 1940
George Armstrong 9th July, 1941
Robert Petter and
Karl Drucke 6th August, 1941
Josef Jakobs 14th August, 1941 (Shot)
Karel Richter 10th December, 1941
Alphonse Timmerman and
Joe Key 7th July, 1941
Duncan Scott-Ford 3rd November, 1942
Johannes Dronkers 31st December, 1942
Franciscus Winter 26th January, 1943
Oswald John Job 16th March, 1944
Pierre Neukermans 23rd June, 1944
Joseph Van Hove 12th July, 1944
John Amery 19th December, 1945 (Treason)
William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw) 3rd January, 1946 (Treason)
Theodore Schurch 4th January, 1946 (Treason)

(all hanged except Jakobs)

 

On Saturday 6 October 1945, Erich Koenig, Joachim Palme-Goltz, Kurt Zuchlsdorff, Heintz Brueling and Josep Mertins (three age 20, one age 21, one age 22) were hanged at Pentonville for the mruder of Wolfgang Rosterg, age 35, at Comrie Prison Camp, Perthshire on 23rd December, 1944.

They were tried by Court Martial and sentenced to death in July 1945.

Details of the crime are on this page:

http://www.islandfarm.fsnet.co.uk/German%2...t%20Britain.htm

 

Just bookmarked that web page. Charles Whiting's "The March on London" discusses the bizarre "Devizes escape plot."

 

It just occurred to me to comment about the five Germans hanged that the man they killed, being age 35, was old enough for his formative years to be before the Nazis came to power, so maybe he could think for himself, whereas the five would be aged eight to ten in 1933 and, therefore, went through the full HJ indoctrination process.

 

Originally posted by angie999@Jan 20 2005, 05:35 AM
It just occurred to me to comment about the five Germans hanged that the man they killed, being age 35, was old enough for his formative years to be before the Nazis came to power, so maybe he could think for himself, whereas the five would be aged eight to ten in 1933 and, therefore, went through the full HJ indoctrination process.
[post=30785]Quoted post[/post]
Yes, the men who were hanged were spouting Nazi dogma at their trial. They even refused a British lawyer, because they felt that they had done no wrong.

 

In addition to the Americans executed at Shepton Mallet by the US authorities under visiting forces legislation, I have just read of the case of Private Karl Hulten of the 501st PIR, who was jointly convicted in a British court alongside British woman Elizabeth Jones of the murder of a taxi driver. Both were sentenced to death, although Jones was reprieved and was released from prison in 1954. Hulten was hanged at Pentonville prison on 8 March 1945.

Source: Juliet Gardiner - Wartime: Britain 1939-1945, headline 2004

Hulten was a deserter who went on a crime spree with Jones. Their story was made into a movie in 1990 and if you look up Karl Hulten on Google you will get dozens of links to the movie, but little to the real crime.

 

Does anyone know just how many British Servicemen were executed for muder during WW2.

Rich