Mont Cassel/Watou BEF 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Deano, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    Anybody know of some resources where I can find out a bit more about Mont Cassel and the withdraw to Watou?

    I have found an online copy of the book:- THE WAR IN FRANCE AND FLANDERS 1939–1940, by Major L.F. Ellis here HyperWar: The War in France and Flanders, 1939-1940 (UK Military Series) and it has some details.

    I'm looking into find out a bit more information about my uncle who was killed on the 30th, I know he was killed when his tank got hit, it would seem that the tanks led the way out from Cassel, so I am presuming he was killed near Watou, but i can't find much out about Watou!

    My Uncles details are:-

    Name: COX, CECIL HERBERT JOHN
    Initials: C H J
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Private
    Regiment/Service: Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry
    Unit Text: 4th Bn.
    Age: 25
    Date of Death: 30/05/1940
    Service No: 5381285
    Additional information: Son of Walter Henry and Rose Cox, of Oxford.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Column 92.
    Memorial: DUNKIRK MEMORIAL

    Thanks

    Dean
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi and welcome Dean.

    If you seacrh for Cassel on here you'll find some of my pictures and some brief notes on what happened there.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Dean, I'll have a look for some extra info for you. Briefly, 4th Ox & Bucks were an infantry battalion. They were the senior battalion in 145th Infantry Brigade which formed part of the 48th South Midland Division, a 'first line' Territorial Division.

    The Brigade was captured in May 1940 and then re-formed in the UK.

    A private in an infantry battalion would not normally be on board a tank. He could well have been crewing or riding on a Carrier (probably 'Bren' rather than 'Universal' at this stage).

    There will certainly be plenty more to find out.

    Rich
     
  4. Michael1940

    Michael1940 Junior Member

    Hi Deano

    I will be at Cassel this weekend researching this exact battle and will be also visiting the Dunkirk memorial . I will of course pay my respects ....just reading DUNKIRK FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore ..... there is a great chapter on the fighting at Cassel and the role of the Ox and bucks .. I be in touch again on Monday
     
  5. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    Hi, Thanks for all the replies. Drew, I have looked at all the info you have posted here all really interesting and some good pictures. Rich, that's quite interesting re not a tank. The only information my Dad was give was that he was in a tank and it took a direct hit, no body to be found. This was witnessed by my Uncles neighbour apparantly as he was in the next "tank". I'm guessing now then that maybe he wasn't in a tank, but a carrier of some kind.
    Michael I'll look into that book.
    I also found this on the BBC site BBC - WW2 People's War - RETREAT FROM CASSEL The part where the German with the Megaphone was shot must have been pretty scary.
    It sounds a very interesting and important battle, I guess there are lots like it though.
    I also found some information on the MOD site http://www2.army.mod.uk/infantry/regts/the_rifles/regiment_today/battalions_locations/7rifles/acoy/heritage/ww2/4taobli/cassel.htm. The memorial brochure has my Uncles name in it.
    I'm thinking of going to Kew to look up details, I think the war diarys are ref W167/400 and W167/401? Also looking online W167/806 might be worth a look, but i'm not sure so any guidance would be appreciated.
    Would it be worth paying £30.00 for his war records, is there much information in them, my Dad is next of kin.

    After this I'll be looking into my mother in laws father who died 15 days earlier, seems a bit more of a mystery as he was a caterer and is the only person to have died on the 15th in a small cemetery (Except for an airman).
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Would it be worth paying £30.00 for his war records, is there much information in them, my Dad is next of kin


    YES, lots of info on there & good luck with your research.
     
  7. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    YES, lots of info on there & good luck with your research.

    Thanks Owen, I'll do take the forms to my dad this weekend.
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    This extract is from Gregory Blaxland's 'Destination Dunkirk' p.304 The passage relating to the night of 29th / 30th May gives the following :-

    "The defenders of Cassel left their battered defences an hour after nightfall, only to find that the Germans had put the hours of daylight to better use than they had themselves. The 4th Ox and Bucks, heading north-eastwards in the lead, removed the first enemy bumped into in a bayonet charge, but were hemmed in near Watou soon after dawn and forced to surrender to the tanks and infantry that surrounded them. Brigadier Somerset was with them, to become the only officer of his rank captured from the main body of the B.E.F."

    Not a lot to go on I'm afraid but there may be a snippet that helps put things in context. There is a subsequent reference to The East Riding Yeomanry who were behind them losing most of their vehicles on a minefield so presumably part of the movement was motorised.

    Rich
     
  9. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    Dean, I'll have a look for some extra info for you. Briefly, 4th Ox & Bucks were an infantry battalion. They were the senior battalion in 145th Infantry Brigade which formed part of the 48th South Midland Division, a 'first line' Territorial Division.

    The Brigade was captured in May 1940 and then re-formed in the UK.

    A private in an infantry battalion would not normally be on board a tank. He could well have been crewing or riding on a Carrier (probably 'Bren' rather than 'Universal' at this stage).

    There will certainly be plenty more to find out.

    Rich

    rich, yes you were quite right! I spoke to my dad, he said that his brother was a Bren gunner, so not a tank then. I'm pretty sure then that he was killed en-route to or at Watou, whilst in a Bren Carrier.
     
  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm glad that the facts are coming together Deano.

    I can't find a picture of a 38th Div Carrier, perhaps not surprising as the official photographers were quite thinly spread.

    This 'phoney war' shot of a 2nd Division carrier shows the crew and stowage typical of the BEF, although these chaps are still wearing Service Dress and have helmet covers which don't seem to appear once hostilities started.

    [​IMG]

    The Carrier was of course designed to get a Bren section into place under small arms fire. It was not proof against anti-tank weapons.

    Rich
     
  11. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    Thanks for the picture Rich, I can see that the were not very substantial.
     
  12. CROONAERT

    CROONAERT Ipsissimus

    Not the most detailed of all War Diaries for the 4/OBLI, I'm afraid!...
     

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  13. snowdrop99a

    snowdrop99a Junior Member

    I'm glad I found this thread - I am researching 4th Ox & Bucks for re-enactment.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  15. Deano

    Deano Junior Member

    Thanks very much for posting the picture and War diary details. At some point I'd like to make it Cassel, hopefully I can incoporte it in some kind of family holiday. I did phone my parents earlier this year when the BBC broadcast live from Cassel.
     
  16. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    Deano

    I have a copies of a few items in relation to 4 OBLI - a copy of a newspaper report on them at Cassel, and also a copy of the list of missing men - Cox is included but no annotations (initials are slightly wrong but service number is the same.)

    I can forward them to you if you wish - I have the full WD from Jan (courtesy of drew) also if you havent got it - pm me your e.mail add and I will send them over.

    Pete.
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    rich, yes you were quite right! I spoke to my dad, he said that his brother was a Bren gunner, so not a tank then. I'm pretty sure then that he was killed en-route to or at Watou, whilst in a Bren Carrier.


    Most of the accounts I've read regarding British units retreating seems they used the Carrier Platoon's as a rear guard whilst the Company's withdrew. Its safe to assume that after a set period of time the carriers would break contact with the enemy and withdraw as well.

    If he was at Cassel and managed to escape he would have done so on foot. When Cassel was finally abandoned the troops marched out in the dead of night on foot so as not to alert the Germans which had by then surrounded Cassel.
     
  18. mikeeastwood2001

    mikeeastwood2001 Junior Member

    Pete,

    Any chance you could email me the WD and list of missing men from 4 OBLI - I'm researching Stan Browning who was captured at Cassel or Watou and there might be some reference to him. My email is mikeeastwood2001@yahoo.co.uk

    Thanks

    Mike
     
  19. timmy39

    timmy39 Junior Member

    hi deano i'm also researching my grandfather he was in the 4TH OBLI CHARLES W ANSON 5379340 PTE. I'm trying to find out where he was captured also what his job was in the battalion ie on a brenn carrier or just on foot ?. When a POW he appears to be the only one sent to stalag xIIIC POW No 11451, i'm stuck at a loose end finding more information. I would appreciate of the newspaper report on 4 OBLI and the full WD from jan thank you very much. my email is t.judge@sky.com
     
  20. jacksun

    jacksun Senior Member

    Tim, just posted the 4th OBLI diaries in the documents area here for Jan - May 30, 1940.

    Also see the diary I posted named Diary Col. E. M. B. Gilmore 2 Glosters, has maps of the Cassel deployment

    My Grandfather was in Company B, 4th OBLI at Cassel, captured May 30, 1940 and spent 4 1/2 years as a POW. They were supposed to evacuate Cassel almost 24 hours before they did but the message didn't get through as something happened to the Despatch rider. Once they got notification to withdraw they had to wait until dark, and by then they were surrounded and the men got separated as they left.

    Wayne
     

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