Mobility/Counter Mobility

This old Sapper is horrified at what is going on with the bombs now. I cannot see why we lift them and get our men killed .. All for the sake of a hole in the desert? Why oh Why? do they not use mine dogs? WHY? they saved countless lives. Why lift any explosive charge. Its madness. I wrote to ur MP asking why are you wasting our mens lives?...... I got no reply....
Sapper

 

Hi Brian,

The mines are not the problem its the improvised explosive devices that are causing the deaths in the main. The main problem in Iraq was the remotely detonated ones detonated by mobile phones. (You sit in a OP a safe distance away. Wait for Joe Squaddie to rock up and make a phone call) if there isn't any Signals jamming kit fitted on the vehicle-if you're in a vehicle. Then there's command wire detonated etc etc etc-Things have moved on from from the WW2 mine and in my experience they were hardly used in Iraq and I suspect those in Afghanistan were left by the Russian and not placed by insurgents.

The British Army do use Dogs for IED's. One of my bessie mates in the RAVC (Ex Signals) has just finished her stint with her dog in Afghanistan. She came home just this week.

 

For me any explosive charge comes under the genre of mines. Old fashioned WW2 expression. Everything that goes bang is a mine......

Rather like the huge air raid explosive charges dropped by the enemy in WW2, they were called Landmines though mines they were not!

 

Were any other units trained to clear mines or was it just the Royal Engineers?

All troops were and still are (supposed) to be trained to recognize the threat, type of location and how to search (usually by prodding) for mines. The main reason though is for casualty evacuation with proper clearance being the preserve of the Royal Engineers and to a bit lesser extent Pioneers. From the blokes I have talked to who served in 8th Army this was as true then as now.

We were issued with the Barret Rifle as an Anti-Materiel weapon (used to shoot suspected or identified mines and explosive devices). I recently read that AT Rifles were used in a similar role during WW2 at times (and after) not seen anything else ref this though.

 

All troops were and still are (supposed) to be trained to recognize the threat, type of location and how to search (usually by prodding) for mines. The main reason though is for casualty evacuation with proper clearance being the preserve of the Royal Engineers and to a bit lesser extent Pioneers. From the blokes I have talked to who served in 8th Army this was as true then as now.

We were issued with the Barret Rifle as an Anti-Materiel weapon (used to shoot suspected or identified mines and explosive devices). I recently read that AT Rifles were used in a similar role during WW2 at times (and after) not seen anything else ref this though.

I was always trained in marking mines and extracing from a mined area before deploying on Ops etc. but wondered if anyone was actually used to lift them etc. Ie do the same job as the Royal Engineers.

 

I assume you mean to clear a whole minefield and declare the area safe if so that is a RE responsibility (later handed over to civil demining teams often employing the blokes who laid them in the first place)

If it is safe lanes for assault etc then RE or Assault Pioneers/Troopers do the job for silent breaches RE tend to do the noisy stuff (GV/Python, Ploughs). Bangalores were rarely taught for breaching when I left but could be used by Assault Pioneers/Troopers as well as RE for a footpath through, (I do not know if still in service though as I left nearly 4 years ago)

 

I assume you mean to clear a whole minefield and declare the area safe if so that is a RE responsibility (later handed over to civil demining teams often employing the blokes who laid them in the first place)

If it is safe lanes for assault etc then RE or Assault Pioneers/Troopers do the job for silent breaches RE tend to do the noisy stuff (GV/Python, Ploughs). Bangalores were rarely taught for breaching when I left but could be used by Assault Pioneers/Troopers as well as RE for a footpath through, (I do not know if still in service though as I left nearly 4 years ago)


Many thanks - are we talking WW2 or Post WW2. I was curious as to WW2, especially France in 1940.

 

I was always trained in marking mines and extracing from a mined area before deploying on Ops etc. but wondered if anyone was actually used to lift them etc. Ie do the same job as the Royal Engineers.

I think the innovation of "Anti-handling" devices has relegated that skill set to a limited few. I know the US doesn't train to remove 'enemy' mines, we don't even remove our own if they are placed with 'anti-handling' devices.

I belive most NATO mines are required to have a 'shelf life'; meaning that, once placed, they will render themselves inert after a certain period.

 

I think the innovation of "Anti-handling" devices has relegated that skill set to a limited few. I know the US doesn't train to remove 'enemy' mines, we don't even remove our own if they are placed with 'anti-handling' devices.

I belive most NATO mines are required to have a 'shelf life'; meaning that, once placed, they will render themselves inert after a certain period.

I don't think NATO use mines anymore with the exception of the USA? Certainly Britain doesn't unless they are command wire detonated like Claymores, is my understanding.

 

I stand partly corrected:

Mine Warfare - British Army Website

I knew there was something about not using mines in that Geneva Convection lecture I kept knodding off in.

 

Britain does not use Anti Personnel mines (except command detonated ones), it still uses Anti Tank ones though.

From the evidence I have (limited to North Africa though) the minefields were breached by the Royal Engineers and Pioneers.
Individual Patrols which went out to dominate no mans land may have had to lift mines to clear a small safe lane (both sides lifted each others mines and laid them elsewhere so minefields could be moved about abit over night).

When clearing a minefield in peacetime then they are rarely lifted as they could have anti handling or just be unstable after being buried.
If trying a silent breach then it would depend on the makeup of the field as with the types of fuses and mines around it would be impossible to clear some without blowing in situ. In which case we used to mark each mine then go past, each would have a charge (1/3 stick of PE placed on the fuse well) and get blown together.

 

I stand partly corrected:

Mine Warfare - British Army Website

I knew there was something about not using mines in that Geneva Convection lecture I kept knodding off in.

While the US does still place AP mines they are of the 'self terminating' variety. Here is an interesting little read:

Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ottawa Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Land mine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

There were thousands of mines laid in the 1940s. Specially on the beaches of the UK. A Special team of Sappers swept Swanage beach post war, thoroughly.. before declaring it safe.
Sadly mines do shift about in sand, sometimes going quite deep, ten feet down, but with the sand constantly shifting. They are on the move all the time.

A very long time after the clearance, one of the boys from a Prep school trod on one that came back near the surface, and was killed. .The whole beach was subsequently cleared again with great care.

Even after all these years I think that there are many mines still about.

By the way... When mines are laid, they are recorded with great accuracy, so that they can be picked up again later with less danger. The mines are usually laid to one to so many yards, I cannot recall, but I think anti tank were laid at one mine per two Yards. But not sure its 67 years ago!

The same thing happened in action. There were several incidences of armoured vehicles blown up on deeply laid mines ..Beyond the range of the Sappers sweeping.

That was also due to the increased weight of an armoured vehicle. compacting the ground enough to set the mine off.

The key word for mine lifting for the team was CONCENTRATION. Failure would certainly lead to your demise, and that concentration had to be sustained under heavy shell, mortar, or small arms fire. Difficult to ignore,-but essential.....
We worked a team of three I swept. "Wass" taped and another Sapper (Lost him) made them safe.
Sapper.

PS My very best wishes go out to all the Sappers and ex Sappers on the site. Gentlemen of the Royal Engineers.
"Once a Sapper always a Sapper"
PPS Was it King Charles first? or second? that gave us that title of Gentlemen?

 

We were supposed to clear a metre a minute in a hand breach using prodders, doing it for 'real' we used to manage about a metre every 3 minutes. (I never cleared one during fighting just cleared some while on 'peacekeeping missions')

4 blokes per breaching team and 4 teams per safe lane to clear an 8m wide lane.

2 prodders leading (prod, uncover, mark, tape lay), followed by a detector man for deep buried mines then the commander to keep in line. the lane would normally have had a recce through it to check composition and for trip wires along the safe lane route (this meant the recce Sgt cleared a 0.6m wide lane on one edge and the start line for us).

The Argentines in the Falklands rarely did any marking of minefields so when we found them they tended to be cordoned off as they were too dangerous to clear.
Over the years many methods have been tried (mechanical, electrical, dogs, even big steel boots to protect feet) but since they are buried in peat and moving you can clear an area and then find deep buried ones have started to 'float up' the terrain is also not suitable for many clearance methods (never mind that it costs a lot of money and pretty much its for the benefit of sheep) . Large areas are still cordoned off with minor clearance now (basically if someone says they see something now).

I can remember Ex Polish soldiers still employed in the 80's by BAOR to do ordnance clearance on the ranges. These blokes were those left over after the war who for whatever reason could not or would not go home and so stayed clearing the minefields laid during the war.
My old man was attached to the RAF Regiment when they went to El Adam in Libya in the early 60's where they were still clearing mines laid by the opposing forces.

 

There is not much that will beat the feeling as you find the two prongs of an S mine in long green grass. Sudden death stares you in the face. AS we found out near Vire in Normandy, on the Vire Vaudrey ridge

 

The next page shows 549 miles of road were swept for mines by 6th AD.

Germany made 70 million mines in WW2. UK/US production was 40 million.
UK study Aug/Nov 1942 found it took roughly 1900 German mines to disable 1 tank