Mines: their effect in WW2

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by sapper, Mar 19, 2006.

  1. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    WW2 brought about a new phase in mine warfare. in two main areas anti-tank and anti-personal. The Germans through their long preparation for war, had produced some of the most lethal series of mines.
    Shortly I will explain the mine clearing drill.
    Sapper
     
  2. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Ah, Mine Clearance. I wonder if there are any major changes from the drill then to the drills now? This'll be an interesting one to watch.
     
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I bought my missus a deactivated German Glass mine (glas-mine 43) last year, i'd be very intrigued as to what they were like to deal with.
     
  4. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    I bought my missus a deactivated German Glass mine (glas-mine 43) last year, i'd be very intrigued as to what they were like to deal with.

    You old romantic! :D
     
  5. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    I bought my missus a deactivated German Glass mine (glas-mine 43) last year, i'd be very intrigued as to what they were like to deal with.

    I might buy my missus an activated one!:D
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    ;) What can I say! she collects 'unusual' glass objects!
    Anyway, sorry for the digression Sapper.
    We await your account.
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    First.
    The Schu mine.
    Made of wood and with the usual German efficiency, nothing was left to chance. It consisted of a well-made wooden box. That begs the question, why go to the trouble of “Dovetailing” the joints for something that was going to blow up?
    The box had a lid that was set to fire at a very low pressure. It could not be detected, as there was no metal at all in its make up. The accepted way to clear Schu mines is to form a line of Sappers and prod the ground in front, while identifying and white taping the area cleared.
    This is a highly dangerous task as a light prod on top and the mine will blow right in from of your face, and did at times…. Not nice! While you are “prodding” the Enemy may throw in a few rounds… They obviously knew the range of their minefields, and would be aware that an attempt would be made to clear them. Watch where you put your feet! One Sgt came up with a Schu mine stuck on the end of his bayonet.

    At one time in Holland, the problem of Schu mines became severe. Day after day, even when out of direct action, men were being brought in on stretchers with a bit of muddy Khaki army blanket slung over, with a footless leg hanging over the side. With a leg now tattered with shredded flesh, and with the blood stained ivory bone sticking out. Day after Day this tragic side show to war continued.

    The effect is pretty horrific; if a man were “Lucky” he would tread on the mine with his legs closed. That would remove one foot or two. If he trod on it while in his stride his legs were open? Then he would lose a foot or two, and the area round his groin may be shredded, and his ability to father children, gone forever. And any chance he had of a happy married life with it……….

    The best thing would be for the explosion to “Concertina” the flesh on his legs that would enable a decently covered stump. The more flesh of his legs that were “Shredded” the more leg would have to be amputated.
    The whole object of the Schu mine is not to kill, but to overload the army’s ability to cope. In that they were very successful.

    In the event, many acres of Holland were “Prodded” and cleared.We did try other means of clearing them. See the posting: “The Garden Roller man”

    Sapper
     
  8. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    I said," I've never met the man that never made a mistake", he replied " I did a job for over 3 years and never made 1 mistake". What was that then, says I". "Lifting and disarming mines from Alamein to Germany, says he." His name was Edward Bolster, R.E. 152 brigade, 1942 -45.
    Met him in Normandy for 60th anniversary, good to have a sense of humour in that job. Don't you think.
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Sapper.
    With regard to Mines there's a question you might be able to help with.
    Did you ever work with or see the results of flail tanks being used to clear mines? It's always stated that they were very effective when needed but I've always wondered just how effective? Would a lane be almost completely clear or just good enough to press on with whatever the tactical situation demanded and then require a lot of clearing by the likes of yourself? It's not something that I've seen any specific opinion on,
    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  10. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    HI Adam.<O:p</O:p
    Yes they were completely effective. Though there were not that many available and they were severely restricted to where they could operate. I have seen them in operation on several occasions, and what a bloody awful noise they made. Though they are susceptible to anti-tank mines, that might sound a bit daft, but when they swivel round on their tracks they hit ground not flailed, There was one just off the beach, it had flailed its way through the beach and up over the bank, then swivelled and blew up, blocking the whole bloody passage off the beach. In the main, mine clearing was done by hand, By idiots like myself, and paid the price.
    Sapper.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Cheers for the info......and all the mine-clearing!
    A
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    More mine related questions for you I'm afraid Sapper.
    I've been looking recently at lots of pictures of vehicles moving down lanes in France with white tape all down the sides of the lane to indicate cleared areas, was this aspect of the Engineers task carried out largely after the fighting had died down somewhat or did it have to be done thoroughly before the lanes could be used at all? I'd always assumed mostly the latter as on a lot of the pictures just one disabled vehicle would completely block the lane. Rather hot work surely??
    Also (sorry about this) did you ever encounter the German Glass mines? The one we've got strikes me as a seriously unpleasant item.
    Adam.
     
  13. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi all! The glass mine first, The ones we came across looked like a small glass jar. Like a prewar Shippams meat paste jar. Could not be detected, had a sort of silver paper top that when you trod on it, mixed two explosive components together... BANG!
    Not many, I think they were dangerous to the user!

    The white tapes? folk have little idea about mine laying, or clearing,the dangers involved, or how it was done. I have been out in front of the leading infantry, laying and clearing mines, sometimes way out, and under the Germans noses..
    Think about it! It had to be done before the assault took place, with clearly marked lanes. one tank blown? and the whole cleared path is blocked....

    I have been out at night on a down facing slope in front of Caen, that in daylight, would be in full view of the enemy, and at point blank range.

    We would often be ahead of the others. Where we should not be ...earning the remark "those bloody Sappers are at it again" In one case we got ahead of the leading infantry. Drove the enemy off a bridge as they tried to blow it. and under heavy fire, removed the explosives...

    Then we were ordered to STOP amd leave it to the advancing infantry.

    All those tapes would be put in often before the Assault started, while we were out in front. Later that safety lane would be enlarged.

    I have a lovely description of such an escapade by the late Captain Edwards RE. See if I can find it?
    Sapper
     
  14. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Nowadays lane marking by 'mine tape' (we now have orange as well as white) is only a temporary measure and for the initial action. As soon as possible lanes are widened and red and white 'Safe Lane Markers' are put in place that won't be accidentaly ripped down and indicate a clear safe lane. Also the lanes will be wired off.

    Later, normally much later the minefields that are still causing an obstruction to the movement of troops or placement of units will be completely (or as completely as is possible) cleared and areas declared safe. If they are not a hazard to our own troops they would be quite often left until after the fighting or war in order to conserve valuable sapper assets.

    As an aside, modern mine warfare hasn't changes all that much except that almost all of the mines that the British use are Anti-Tank mines (purely anti-personnel mines are illegal according to the Montreal Agreement) . Mines have also inevitably become a little more sophisticated being initiated by weight, magnetism or even sound. Many modern mines havie a built in self destruct timer. Although not 100% reliable, the mines can be set to explode days, weeks or even months after laying depending on the tactical situation expected. Not a perfect solution, but it certainly leaves less for the poor sappers to clear up.
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Once again, good stuff.
    It's so easy to see a picture of a taped advance and hardly even register the difficuilties encountered and sacrifices that have already been made in order to allow the main advance to go in.
    The Mine we Have is of this style: View attachment 113 (GLASMINEN 43) with a thin glass plate on top which drops the heavier disc onto a pigs-head igniter. Is this similar to the style you describe? I'm guessing not as it's action is fully mechanical rather than chemical. I've got reference to a smoke grenade that sounds similar (smallish glass bottle?)but am trying to find a picture that fits your description better.
    Cheers again,
    Adam

    (and cheers PP, all good stuff)
     

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  16. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    WW2 had quite sophisticated mines, including proximity and tremblers, beside the usual push, pull, tread, ingiters. I still think the mine that caught me in Normandy was as good as it gets, as a weapon of destruction amongst infantry. The S mine, a truly lethal weapon.
    Sapper
     
  17. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    Ive read of a few times mines being used as an inteligent defence in depth. in that you would lay the mines in a way to funnel the enemy attack at your strongest defence. I guess you would lay a sort of breadcrumb trail where the mines are less densly layed. Favourite Russian and British method, Always wondered how effective this could be and why the attacking enemy would fall for this one. Have you seen this sapper quite intested in the stragegy of laying mines. im sure in not just as simple as throw them down.

    Kev
     
  18. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    With mines it should never be a case of just 'throw them down' and there are several reasons for this.

    Firstly, mines like all other munitions and equipment are a finite resorce. Even when you have lots of them it is much better to deploy them intelligently. They are used primarily to hinder the enemys progress in the advance, and in an ideal world you'd have enough mines to do what the East Germans did in the cold war, lay mines along the entire front so that regardless where the enemy come you'll be ready for them. In reality you demploy them in conjunction with all the other systems you have available, interlocking with other weapon systems in an overall defence plan. It's okay to say that minefields 'funnel' the enemy into killing zones, and that should be part of the plan, but for the best effect a minefield should always be covered by other forms of fire to make breeching as difficult and as impractical as possible. It is obvious that the enemy will take the path of least resistance and that will be set up as a killing zone. It is interesting to note that a dummy minefields can have as much effect as a real one but if tried too often the effect is minimized.

    Secondly, if you win the war, and that is what you are planning to do or why bother, you are the ones (or at least your sappers are) who are going to have to clear the minefields that you layed, and those of the enemy. Not recording and properly marking your own minefields is very bad practice and increasing the work load and danger for the clearance teams and causing a danger to your own troops in general and the general public. You'd hope the enemy will have the same policy, but as in the case of the Falklands, that's not always the case. Even if properly recorded, left long enough and mines 'migrate', that is move with the earth or sand they are buried in and are no longer where you thought they were. :huh:
     
  19. kfz

    kfz Very Senior Member

    With mines it should never be a case of just 'throw them down' and there are several reasons for this.

    Firstly, mines like all other munitions and equipment are a finite resorce. Even when you have lots of them it is much better to deploy them intelligently. They are used primarily to hinder the enemys progress in the advance, and in an ideal world you'd have enough mines to do what the East Germans did in the cold war, lay mines along the entire front so that regardless where the enemy come you'll be ready for them. In reality you demploy them in conjunction with all the other systems you have available, interlocking with other weapon systems in an overall defence plan. It's okay to say that minefields 'funnel' the enemy into killing zones, and that should be part of the plan, but for the best effect a minefield should always be covered by other forms of fire to make breeching as difficult and as impractical as possible. It is obvious that the enemy will take the path of least resistance and that will be set up as a killing zone. It is interesting to note that a dummy minefields can have as much effect as a real one but if tried too often the effect is minimized.

    Secondly, if you win the war, and that is what you are planning to do or why bother, you are the ones (or at least your sappers are) who are going to have to clear the minefields that you layed, and those of the enemy. Not recording and properly marking your own minefields is very bad practice and increasing the work load and danger for the clearance teams and causing a danger to your own troops in general and the general public. You'd hope the enemy will have the same policy, but as in the case of the Falklands, that's not always the case. Even if properly recorded, left long enough and mines 'migrate', that is move with the earth or sand they are buried in and are no longer where you thought they were. :huh:


    Isnt this sort of laying stratagy meany more as sort of deterent. Once the attacker realises there confronted with a covered minefield wont they think twice about attacking? How would you lay field so that it would entrap the attacker and destroy him. I guess this is what the books are getting at. How would you trick the enemy into thinking they could overcome the minefield asn. The last time I read about this sort of minefiled defence wasi na book about Kursk.
     
  20. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Isnt this sort of laying stratagy meany more as sort of deterent. Once the attacker realises there confronted with a covered minefield wont they think twice about attacking? How would you lay field so that it would entrap the attacker and destroy him. I guess this is what the books are getting at. How would you trick the enemy into thinking they could overcome the minefield asn. The last time I read about this sort of minefiled defence wasi na book about Kursk.

    minefields are suppossed to delay, put off and general kill as many of the enemy as possible.


    Anti-personnel mines and devices should be laid so as to torment the enemy and attack his morale. if laid in large numbers they may cause heaveay casulties. the most profitable time to use them is during a withdrawal. if they are well sited in a withdrawal , every one of them must eith case the enemey's resources will be streched or his morale attacked.
    Field Engineering and Mine Warfare, Pamphlet No2 Field Defences and Obstacles Part 1 All arms, WO Comm No 8666.
     

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