Markings and Insignia for Armour in the BEF

Discussion in '1940' started by LondonNik, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. LondonNik

    LondonNik Senior Member

    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Not a photograph of armour but a 1st Armoured Division formation sign on a 'bitsa' BSA WM20 which has just been sold in France. The other side of the tank has a census number which matches the engine that came with the bike so there seems to have been a BEF donor bike at some time.

    Can anyone identify the red '2' in the hollow square ? I stumbled over 'B' company, some suggestion that red was used for the senior regiment and an idea that '2' may have been used in a reconnaissance unit.

    [​IMG]

    The marking looks as if it may have first been in white and the tank looks to show evidence of Light Green No. 5 disruptive (which was used also on my 2nd Infantry Division Norton)

    [​IMG]

    There is a big splodge of early gas detector paint on the left hand side of the tank and census number only on that side which is characteristic for the period.
     
  3. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Not a photograph of armour but a 1st Armoured Division formation sign on a 'bitsa' BSA WM20 which has just been sold in France. The other side of the tank has a census number which matches the engine that came with the bike so there seems to have been a BEF donor bike at some time.

    Can anyone identify the red '2' in the hollow square ? I stumbled over 'B' company, some suggestion that red was used for the senior regiment and an idea that '2' may have been used in a reconnaissance unit.


    The marking looks as if it may have first been in white and the tank looks to show evidence of Light Green No. 5 disruptive (which was used also on my 2nd Infantry Division Norton)


    There is a big splodge of early gas detector paint on the left hand side of the tank and census number only on that side which is characteristic for the period.

    Lovely high resolution. I would agree with B Squadron (square) and senior regiment (red). The two could mean 2nd troop. Now you just need the AoS plate to identify the regiment ...

    Andrew
     
  4. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Rich, Another great find. If it were on a tank it would be B Squadron 2nd Troop. The Armored Divisions seem to use Squadron/Troop over Company/Section probably because of the horse soldiers wanting to use Calvary terms. Red would be one of the two, Queens Bays or 2nd RTR. I'm not sure where motorcycles fit into the establishment of a 1940 Armored Regiment. I know they had Dingo's, could the bikes be for running messages?
     
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Unfortunately, the tank's not mine. I knew that it was for sale but couldn't permit the complete bike.

    It gets better Bob as the front mudguard (assuming it's the original) seems to show the movement code.

    [​IMG]

    The colour looks to be beige / brown / beige and there is a number 0080 overpainted by the bars, as well as 006 on the leading edge.

    I assume that 006 is simply the identifier of the motorcycle within the unit.
     
  6. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    While we're on the subject of 1st Armoured Division, here's a nice image of two from 3rd RTR. I saved this on ebay a little while ago and it looks as if I forgot to post it then.

    [​IMG]

    The photo is pencilled on the reverse 'Ypern' which is the German spelling for Ypres / Ieper. presumably incorrect in this case ?
     
  7. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    The code on the fender only expands the confusion. I have for 1st AD

    Unit - AoS - Mobilization

    HQ 1AD 1 0020
    HQ 2AB 3 0130
    Bays 4 0132
    9L 5 0134
    10H 6 0136
    HQ 3AB 7 0040
    2RTR 8 0046
    3RTR 9 0042
    5RTR 10 0044

    Your fender looks like 0080. 3rd digit is the upper and lower stripes, last digit the center stripe.

    3rd RTR would have been around Calais and as far north as Gravelines, Ieper could only be the location if the Germans took here there. If the other A Squadron tank has yellow markings than she most likely is also 3rd RTR. I often disagree with what is written on the rear of photos but sometimes they do help.

    Do you restore WWII British motorcycles?

    -Bob
     
  8. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    The code on the fender only expands the confusion. I have for 1st AD

    Unit - AoS - Mobilization

    HQ 1AD 1 0020
    HQ 2AB 3 0130
    Bays 4 0132
    9L 5 0134
    10H 6 0136
    HQ 3AB 7 0040
    2RTR 8 0046
    3RTR 9 0042
    5RTR 10 0044

    Your fender looks like 0080. 3rd digit is the upper and lower stripes, last digit the center stripe.

    3rd RTR would have been around Calais and as far north as Gravelines, Ieper could only be the location if the Germans took here there. If the other A Squadron tank has yellow markings than she most likely is also 3rd RTR. I often disagree with what is written on the rear of photos but sometimes they do help.

    Do you restore WWII British motorcycles?

    -Bob

    Excellent information Bob. Maybe one day there might be some interest in pooling data about mobilisation codes on this site. I have a few bits and pieces.

    I think Rich will have quite a bit to say about motorcycles ...

    Andrew
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It would indeed be nice to have a full list of the mobilisation codes. That said, it's only really 1st Armoured Division who seem to have gone into action with them.

    It would be an exaggeration to say that I restore WWII motorcycles but I have put one BEF Norton back together and that is where my interest stems from. Mine was with 2nd Division but was not built until December 1939 / January 1940 so never displayed the unit's mobilisation code.

    There are some photos on the more general markings thread.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/8586-bef-1940-vehicle-markings-3.html

    By the way Bob, have you done something with your Photobucket account ? I can't see the pictures anymore !

    Rich
     
  10. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    I tried to delete selected scans in my photobucket but ended up emptying the entire lot. Hopefully anything of interest was downloaded.

    8 which would be the top and bottom stripe is allocated to "service color" which I'm not sure about. When I first saw the fender I thought 0030 as it looked yellow/brown/yellow which were the stripes for 2nd AB HQ 0130 but obviously the fender starts with 00 and not 01.

    The codes were assembled by looking at photographs but there also may be some documentation found.

    4th & 7th RTR's tanks could sometimes be seen with their mobilization codes 1874 & 1875. Sometimes you spot them on other BEF vehicles:

    [​IMG]

    On the front right track guard you can see a neat 1120 which may be the mobilization code, the big painted number 1218 I suspect as German recovery codes as on the other side you can clearly see the German walking stick in square box symbol. The Bren Carrier would belong to 1st Battalion The Duke of Wellington's Regiment. If anyone has an idea on the 1120 being something else I would love the hear it.

    As to motorcycles, a little embarrassing compared to your efforts, a few months ago I purchased a 35th scale resin model of a Norton Big with sidecar, I love the look of those early sidecars and plenty of photos of them with the BEF. One day I will build it.

    -Bob
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The number has to be "8" doesn't it, with that characteristic back edge ? I do wonder though about the whole lot being overpainted by the coloured bands. Could the (0)006 be a corrected code ? Perhaps a reserve machine allocated to a unit on the eve of departure ?

    I think that you're right about the number on the Carrier, the 1120 certainly looks like British lettering.

    In terms of models, I think that building full size motorcycles using parts made of proper materials is probably easier. The WD Big 4 does have nice lines. It's not far removed from a 1930s (trials) competition model. In terms of BEF markings, we still have the problem with 4 RNF of uncertainty over the background colours but the Divisional Cavalries seem to have had a small number as well.

    I have good contacts with a number of Big 4 owners so if you need detail photos in the future, just ask.
     
  12. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    0 - 9 were associated with 10 different colors, the 3rd digit would correspond with the upper and lower stripe color while the 4th digit would be the center stripe color. I cannot see it being anything but 0080 like you said the back edge cannot be anything else. As the color for the digit 0 was brown and the center stripe is brown so that confirms ending in 0. Is it possible the tank and fender are from different bikes?

    I noticed an IWM photo of a 2nd Division Carrier with the code and stripes. These may have been painted over by May of 1940.

    [​IMG]

    It looks like 1059 making the stripe grey/white/grey and the lower stripe obviously buried under the turf.

    Here is the 5oth Division motorcycle that inspires me. I think it is a Norton but do not know for sure. The model has the sidecar which is the type in the photo. What I can use is something that shows the various cables, throttle, brake, etc and if the engine showed any wires, these can all be added to a model to make it more interesting.

    [​IMG]

    -Bob
     
  13. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    One of my photos think it is just pre war.
    bike sidecar pre war2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Ah yes Bob, I know the location and here is Rewdco's 'Then & Now' using the same type of Big 4 Norton. Unfortunately there were no available ladies on that rainy day in May 2010.

    [​IMG]

    Certainly no problem in getting you as many close-ups as you want for detailing.

    There is no guarantee that the mudguard came from the same bike as the fuel tank. The census number on the tank matches the engine number but the frame had been swapped post-war for a 1943 example. I was hoping to confirm from the code if it did belong with the tank. It could also be of course that the bike had been taken to France earlier, as part of a Base Workshop, for instance.
     
  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    One of my photos think it is just pre war.

    Certainly pre-war Keith. My guess would be a Territorial camp in the summer of 1939. The uniform insignia are rifle regiment so it's likely to be the Queen Victoria's Rifles (who ended up in Calais minus their vehicles).
     
  16. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    Rich, which one is you? The bike looks like SCC2 or is it G3?
    -Bob
     
  17. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm not there Bob although I went researching locations with them a few months earlier. I'm not sure if the dressing up thing is for me.

    Unfortunately, a couple of the Dutch lads went the SCC No.2 route on their Big 4s a few years back, I think based on 'New Old Stock' parts. The very last Big 4s (and their spares) were probably SCC No.2.

    The AoS background colour for 4 RNF remains a puzzle. I'm beginning more and more to suspect brown which of course wasn't in use as there was no 3rd brigade with 50 Div.
     
  18. Bob42100

    Bob42100 Member

    This is a Mk VIB with 7th Battalion Royal Tanks named GUINIVERE. Has anyone seen other photos?

    [​IMG]

    Close up of name, mobilization code "1875" and embarkation stripes red oxide/grey/redoxide

    [​IMG]

    On the turret are these opposite pointing arrows that I have never seen before. They appear too neat for German recovery markings, any ideas?

    [​IMG]
     
  19. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    This is a Mk VIB with 7th Battalion Royal Tanks named GUINIVERE. Has anyone seen other photos?


    I got this from a French magazine but it doesn't tell you much more than you have already:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=49996&stc=1&d=1304534555

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=49997&stc=1&d=1304534555

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  20. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Interesting position for the gas paint patch too!

    Chris
     

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