lee enfield rifle stocks?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by wingturner, Mar 19, 2010.

  1. wingturner

    wingturner Junior Member

    These rifle sticks were found in the garage of a now deceased ex home guard member here in rotherham.
    Two things we don't know, why they were totally stripped,and are they lee enfield .303 or p40s

    Ian

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    http://www.flickr.com/photos/15311140@N04/4445782035/in/photostream/

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    http://www.flickr.com/photos/15311140@N04/4445782035/in/photostream/
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/15311140@N04/4445777383/%22%20title=%22DSC_3981-01%20by%20scrunterboll,%20on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4445777383_1fe2f6f386.jpg%22%20width=%22335%22%20height=%22500%22%20alt=%22DSC_3981-01%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/15311140@N04/4445782035/%22%20title=%22DSC_3993-01%20by%20scrunterboll,%20on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4445782035_bb1c77bf29.jpg%22%20width=%22500%22%20height=%22335%22%20alt=%22DSC_3993-01%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E


    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/15311140@N04/4445777383/%22%20title=%22DSC_3981-01%20by%20scrunterboll,%20on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4445777383_1fe2f6f386.jpg%22%20width=%22335%22%20height=%22500%22%20alt=%22DSC_3981-01%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    No pictures, just red crosses for me.
     
  3. Ropi

    Ropi Biggest retard of all

    I dont see anything at all.
     
  4. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    First, I think you mean a P.'14, not a P40. P.'14 is an abbreviation for the Pattern 1914 rifle that was used by the Home Guard.

    There is an easy way to tell. If it is a one piece stock, i.e. butt and fore-end in one piece then it is for a P.'14. If it is in two parts with separate butt and fore-end it is for a Lee-Enfield.

    Just to complicate matters, it is most likely for a Model 1917, which was the American version of the P.'14 in .30-06 calibre. The Home Guard had far more of these. The finger grooves are also slightly different.

    Sorry to confuse!

    Regards
    TonyE
     
  5. beeza

    beeza Senior Member

    Lotsa red crosses

    David
     
  6. wingturner

    wingturner Junior Member

    Sorry about the pictures not appearing.I was using flickr instead of photobucket
     
  7. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

  8. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    I believe the red bands signified training - on fully assembled drill/ground training rifles there would be a big hole drilled right through, although I suspect this was for post-war use, working examples having a particular requirement at times of possible invasion!
     
  9. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    I believe the red bands signified training - on fully assembled drill/ground training rifles there would be a big hole drilled right through, although I suspect this was for post-war use, working examples having a particular requirement at times of possible invasion!


    Nope! The red band on forestock - SOMETIMES around the butt! - signified the .300 (30-06) calibre of the P17, the Pattern 17 or Model 17

    The 30-06 was a rimless cartridge...and the .303 was rimmed - so ramming one into the M1917 could get it WELL stuck in there!!!! :lol: And there were lots of known instances of the barrel shattering when fired with the .303 round!

    I wonder if that is why these woods are "orphans"!!! :mellow:
     
  10. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    Those are certainly Model 1917 stocks as you say, identified by the red paint band.

    However, I must challenge your assertion about using a .303 in a Model 1917, as I do not believe this is possible.

    The bolt face of a M1917 is recessed for a .30-06 round which has a base diameter of .4732". The rim diameter of a .303 round is .540" so it is impossible to close the bolt of a M1917 on a .303 round. Also I do not think a .303 will even fully enter the chamber of a .30-06 barrel.

    Even if it was possible to chamber and fire a .303, I still do not think it would shatter the rifle barrel. The action is on of the strongest in the world and has been demonstrated in tests to withstand pressures of 50 tsi.

    However, if you have evidence to the contrary I would be very interested to see it.

    Regards
    TonyE
     
  11. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Tony, the reference that David Orr footnotes in his "Duty Without Glory" is K.R. Gulvin's "Kent Home Guard" - I presume a history of same

    The bolt face of a M1917 is recessed for a .30-06 round which has a base diameter of .4732". The rim diameter of a .303 round is .540" so it is impossible to close the bolt of a M1917 on a .303 round.


    I didn't say it would close - just that the round would get jammed in there...especially by someone trying to close the bolt with all the gentleness of untrained volunteer part-time soldiers.

    As for the "shattering" barrel...looking round the net there's a possibility this is the same issue that affected only Eddystone-manufactured m1917's, faulty receivers that crack and eventually burst under pressure where the receiver meets the barrel. I don't see anything about Springfield or Remington-manufactured items being affeced by this problem.
     
  12. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    The 30-06 was a rimless cartridge...and the .303 was rimmed - so ramming one into the M1917 could get it WELL stuck in there!!!! :lol: And there were lots of known instances of the barrel shattering when fired with the .303 round!


    To me, that statement suggests that you are saying that it is possible to jam a .303" round into an M1917 and that it would burst the barrel when fired.

    If you are now saying that those are two separate statements and the second refers to the barrel of Pattern '14 rifles shattering when fired with the correct .303" ammunition, then I must again take issue with you.

    The P.'14 is one of the strongest bolt actions built and I know of no cases of one failing in use, let alone "lots of known instances".

    Also you mention this did not affect Springfield or Remington made P.'14s, but Springfield did not make any P.14s (or M1917s for that matter) and the Eddystone rifles were also made by Remington, all be it at a different factory.

    Possibly you are thinking of the early Springfield and Rock Island M1903 receivers which failed due to poor heat treatment, or the problems encountered with the .276" Pattern '13 rifles (the predecessor of the P.'14) immediately before WWI.

    I will try to find the reference you gave me re:"Duty without Glory", but if it is short perhaps you could post it.

    Regards
    TonyE
     
  13. Charlie Xray

    Charlie Xray Junior Member

    If it does not have a red band on the forearm (hard to see in the pic), the stock on the left is probably from a P14, which was .303 British caliber. The stock on the right was from a US M1917, and the red stripe indicates so, because it identified the rifle as requiring US 30.06 ammunition.

    The M1917 came from the British P14 design. When the US entered WWI, it did not have sufficient supplies of the US standard M1903 Springfield. The British had just recently canceled orders for the P14, which were being made by Winchester, having been able to meet war needs by getting the No1Mk4 production up to speed. The US modified the P14 design to make these rifles in 30.06. More M1917s served in WWI with US forces than the M1903. After the war they went into war reserve.

    During WWII, before the US got involved, the US shipped M1917 rifles to England as well as some M1 Garands for home guard use (seeing as they had few personal defense arms because of strict gun laws to resist a German invasion). The rifles in 30.06 got a red band on the forearm to identify them as 30.06.

    Those that were repatriated to the US are highly prized by collectors because they have a history that can be somewhat identified.

    The M1917 and the M1903 were also used by the US during WWII mainly for training and some rear echelon troops.

    I have a M1917 made by Winchester in near original condition, and it is a fine design and a great rifle. It is a bit heavier than the M1903 and not as sleek and sexy looking, but I love mine. The sights on the M1917 were peep type like on the No4Mk1 and better battle sights than those on the M1903. I also have a scoped hunting rifle made up from a M1917 Winchester that I deer hunted with for 40 years. It is my favorite rifle. Many of these rifles were sold very cheaply after the war (less than $20) and their very sturdy actions were often converted to magnum caliber hunting rifles. Prices today for one in good condition is pushing $1000. Prime examples can go even higher.

    Looks like the upper handguards are missing from these two, otherwise they look to be in good shape. Any chance the rest is "buried" somewhere?

    CX
     
  14. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    The Pattern '14 was not just made by Winchester Charlie, it was made by Remington at Ilion and Remington Arms at Eddystone as well. Also, it was the No.1 Mark III rifle that Britain used in WWI, not the No.1 Mark IV as you stated. (Britain used Roman Mark numbers until 1945)

    Regards
    TonyE
     
  15. Charlie Xray

    Charlie Xray Junior Member

    The Pattern '14 was not just made by Winchester Charlie, it was made by Remington at Ilion and Remington Arms at Eddystone as well. Also, it was the No.1 Mark III rifle that Britain used in WWI, not the No.1 Mark IV as you stated. (Britain used Roman Mark numbers until 1945)

    Regards
    TonyE

    I stand corrected. Apologies. I was thinking that Remington and Eddystone didn't enter the picture until the M1917. Same for the No1Mk3. I need to go review my rifle history.

    BTW, I had one of those SMLEs in absolutely mint condition and like an idiot I sporterized it. Paid about $20 for it. The dumb things we do when we are young....

    CX
     

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