LE PARADIS MASSACRE: confirmation required

Discussion in '1940' started by Greg Bloomfield, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. Major John L Raybould TD

    Major John L Raybould TD Junior Member


    I've been on the site before. Unfortunately, and surprisingly, it doesn't have a roll of honour of those victims. I've even tried to email Mr Raybould a few times but have never received an answer. I find it hard to believe that such a roll does not exist somewhere. But thanks anyway.

    Sorry but I do not recall receiving any e-mails from you. For years I have immediately added the address of e-mail senders to my address book. Sadly all e-mails prior to Dec 09 were lost when my old PC crashed fatally but I now copy the text of important ones to my PC and also to a detached hard drive.
    There are some informative postings on Le Paradis - where a namesake of 2 R Nfk was murdered - Pte John W Raybould. See my 29 May 11 posting on thread 6 ref the norfolkbc site. Yours aye, John
  2. Major John L Raybould TD

    Major John L Raybould TD Junior Member

    John hello and welcome. Such a pity about your website.

    This is a link to the cached version of one page at least.
    Le Paradis - 27 May 1940

    Thanks Diane.
    I will try and post my B&C site Le Paradis pages with photographs onto the net via 'photos.live'
    Enjoy the weekend.
    Yours aye,
  3. mrsscuffer

    mrsscuffer Junior Member

    I've noticed that on the 'official' sites eg CWGC that the details of death for a number of the identified victims of the massacre don't match up with the actual date/place of death. My Uncle (in law) served with the 2 Bn Royal Norfolk and is listed as having died on 26/5/40 at Dunkirk. Obviously if they were at Le Paradis this would be incorrect. Would it be safe to assume that in the mayhem surrounding Dunkirk et al, that a number of deaths were just incorrectly recorded or even guessed at? If so here's another name for the roll of honour

    Pte John W B Lattimore No1867761

  4. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The difference of one day could mean that he was noted as killed during the fighting at Le Paradis prior to the surrender and subsequent massacre.

    He is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial which is the memorial where all army casualties from the 1940 campaign in France and Flanders with no known grave are recorded.
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Found in the BEF Norfolks Missing Men File.

  6. LeanneK

    LeanneK Junior Member

    Hi everyone.
    I have just come across this site and this particular thread as I have been doing some research into Corporal H Pretty too. I have found that I am related to him. Although its quite a distant relation (great grand uncle) I am very proud of him. I am looking for any information about him that I can find. The information on here already has been amazing and it was so moving to see the photographs of the documents of what possesions they has when found.
    If anyone has any more information about Corporal H Pretty the please let me know.
    Thank you everyone.
  7. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    The courage and heroism of generations of people were honoured and the exciting future was celebrated as Dereham’s Memorial Hall was officially re-opened yesterday after a £2.6m refurbishment.

    PICTURE GALLERY: Poignant start to new era at Dereham Memorial Hall - News - Dereham Times

    A highlight of the re-dedication ceremony in the auditorium was the first public showing of a sculpture
    created by Dereham sculptor Neal French, dedicated to heroism, courage and self sacrifice of ordinary people.
    It is based on an image of Private William O’Callaghan from Dereham carrying his comrade Private Bert Pooley over his shoulder after they survived the massacre of Le Paradis.
    Mr O’Callaghan’s son Dennis - who attended the ceremony with his sister Heather Neeve and his son Stuart - described the sculpture as “fantastic.”
    “It represents what my father would have wanted to have been achieved for Dereham. It is not just for him but for all the people who did not come back and still do not come back.”

    click on photo gallery top right hand corner to see pics.
  8. robertsnowball

    robertsnowball Junior Member

    hi does anyone have an e-mail address for mr raybould it would be appreciated... many thanks rob
  9. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    hi does anyone have an e-mail address for mr raybould it would be appreciated... many thanks rob

    Hello. The best thing is to click on his username and there is a facility there to send an e-mail to him.

  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If you send a private message - PM - to him, he should get an email notification. Click on his username, second option.
  11. ranville

    ranville Senior Member

    Found in the BEF Norfolks Missing Men File.


    ManyThanks for those photos and text Drew. I missed these first time round, Really good and interesting.
  12. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

  13. RoyalHighlander

    RoyalHighlander New Member

    Pte. HIGH, C.R. was my uncle and one of those murdered. My dad knew his brother had been killed, but it wasn't until 1983 when he went back to England for a family visit that he found out about the details on how his brother died when they had a display and info in the local Norfolk museum explaining the Paradis Farm Massacre
  14. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Yesterday a memorial service to William O’Callaghan.


    Today in Paris the film, Les Fantomes de Paradis (The Ghosts of Paradis), is written, filmed and directed by Helene Chauvin, who grew up in Paradis and whose great-uncle took in Pte O’Callaghan and Pte Pooley after discovering them in a pigsty after the massacre.


    Arthur Brough still smiling.

  15. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The claims are nothing new, I'm not an arms expert by any long shot, but I've read accounts of officers buying their own pistols in France and some officers deploying with very old revolvers that used soft lead bullets for ammunition that would easily break up or deform where hitting a body. I think there's a thread on here that i started regarding the later subject from a report i found at Kew.

    Lets say for a minute Knocklein was right then why did something similar happen at Wormhoudt, St. Venant, Nieppe Forest and probably a few more places that I've not discovered yet all committed by SS troops and not the Wehrmacht?

    My view is simple on the reasons these atrocities happened. SS Troops in 1940 were ill trained, ill disciplined, sadistical bastards that had run riot in Poland and thought they could carry on their 'jolly' in France. I know from accounts some of the SS at Wormhoudt were drunk when shooting PoWs in the town centre so that says it all to me.

    Plus the fact someone is selling a new edition of a book doesn't help with any credibility to the argument in my opinion ;)
    holyboy, Mr Jinks and Rich Payne like this.
  17. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Totally agree with Drew here - if the claims are right, then pretty much every action involving British troops and .303 ammunition might have resulted in claims of dum-dum bullets - to say nothing of .45 ammunition rounds? I'm no arms expert but the exit wound from a tumbling round can be the size of a dinner plate and I'm quoting an RAMC Lt.Colonel - as far as I'm aware, all rounds tumble towards the end of their range, even if high velocity and from rifled weapons. Read the accounts in Raffael Scheck's book about SS atrocities against black French troops a week or two later in which the excuses range from 'they wouldn't surrender' to, 'they were savages, we had to kill them' - this has absolutely nothing to do with ballistic misconceptions and everything to do with the status of SS troops in 1940 as already fully indoctrinated Nazis who felt they were 'authorised' to behave in such ways.

    Glad to see the French trip went well - always a good feeling when it goes well.
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just as a side note. I went to Paradis last week and visited the cemetery. Someone has placed a cross of remembrance on every grave in the cemetery. So that's 109 crosses if memory serves me well. Dam fine effort :salut:
    holyboy likes this.
  19. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The behaviour of the SS at Le Paridis should come as no surprise.It was the result of the ideology and indoctrination of those who had passed through the Junker schools for the SS. There was also the excuses for the excesses when they were finally brought to book but it was not necessary in the outrages committed in the Soviet Union where the Slavs were seen as the Untermenchen.No need to differentiate between the SS and the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front,they were equally as bad.

    A look at the 1914 Bryce Report indicates the template for what was to be repeated in the Second World War....offenses against civilians and captured enemy personnel which the Allies saw in the Second World War as the direct result of Prussian militarism with the catalyst of Nazism.
  20. GavinJ

    GavinJ New Member

    Hi guys, interesting thread, Drew5233/ Major John L Raybould have you got the photos on a new accessible website as all your photo links no longer work. Also Major Johns old website was recommended on several other sites, I would be very interested to see this material to see if any photos/info is there on my Great Uncle. If not I would be grateful for a direct message so you can perhaps share them with me directly.

    My Great uncle was 5772238 Pvt Douglas Harry Auker 2nd Bat Royal Norfolks.

    I would like to correct you that I have recently discovered he was not murdered at the Le Paradis Massacure, so should not be included in the roll call. He was given a month span date range for his death on his headstone, which made it clear to me he wasn't at the massecure.

    After lots of research I found out his name had been quoted incorrectly in several books on the Royal Norfolks in Dunkirk. Here he was called Hawker from Kings Lynn. He was Major Ryder's driver and was sent on a mission to drive 4 of his comrades to blow up a bridge to stop the German advance sometime after 3:30am on the 27/05/40. His vehicle was machine gunned just before the bridge and the 4 lads jumped out into a canal. Doug was blown up in his Humber as he tried to turn it round to alert the Major that the Germans had already made it across the bridge. This story was told by 1 of his passengers who as a result was not at the massecure and ultimately survived the war, Pvt Ernie Farrow.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

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