LCA 512 - Juno - Nan White

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by klambie, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Anyone able to place this craft in a LCA Flotilla on D-Day, landing the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada on Nan White?

    Possibilities are:
    554 LCA Flotilla (HMS Monowai)
    556 LCA Flotilla (HMS Monowai)
    506 LCA Flotilla (HMS Duke of Wellington)
    518 LCA Flotilla (SS Isle of Guernsey)

    From after action reports by Flotilla commanders, I have:
    506 (LCAs 768, 519, 803, 467, 416, 525)
    518 (LCAs 841, 710, 881, 650, 844, 835)

    Inquiries related to this story:
    D-Day still takes an emotional toll on vets
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  2. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I believe that both A and B Companies, the first-wave assault troops, were on the Monowai, a former Red Ensign ship from New Zealand. It may help narrow down the identification because of the ten L.C.A.’s that carried A and B Company in, apparently only only two managed to get off the shore.
    The identification of the officer described may be helpful as well.
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  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    have a look through this thread it might help
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  4. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    I have some Neptune records from Kew and for the two Monowai flotillas, one report is missing and one mentions no craft numbers. From previous discussion here, I'm thinking of the Green books that some of the Neptune researchers here have looked at.

    I suspect if I can put it in one of those flotillas, I will still struggle to determine if it carried the right Coy or the left, but it will narrow the possibilities a bit. I'm fairly certain I can't connect LTIN to LCA, is it possible to connect LTIN to flotilla?

    From a bit of looking, it appears there were no fatal officer casualties on 6 June, so that will widen the possibilities out again.
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  5. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member Patron

    I think Monowai was still a Red Ensign ship, she was owned by the Union SS
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  6. Hi Klambie,

    LCA 512 belonged to 526 Assault Flotilla, on board LSI(M) HMS QUEEN EMMA (QE). 526 Flotilla carried LTIN 1082 to 1089, and comprised the following eight craft:
    LCA 228
    LCA 411
    LCA 512
    LCA 538
    LCA 556
    LCA 557
    LCA 1031
    LCA 1336

    As you surmised it is very difficult to link LTINs to individual LCA, not least because LCA loads are generally listed as blocks of LTINs in the Landing Tables rather than individually. However, if you can find the Battalion Landing Tables (when they still exist), they should describe in detail the loading of each single craft, sometimes down to the initials, name and Service Number of ever individual from the unit in each craft. But again, these are very rare indeed, and still do not connect to the hull number of the craft. It is also extremely rare to find a photo of an LCA with its D Day LTIN board.

    You will note that LCA 512 was planned to carry troops of 1 C Scot R to MIKE GREEN Beach near Graye-sur-Mer, not QOR to NAN WHITE at Bernières, so there must be some confusion somewhere and 512 might not be the pennant you are looking for.

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  7. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

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  8. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Thanks all, particularly Michel, precisely what I was hoping for, even if the results don't match what the info provided and make it difficult to see how to get any further. Michel, can you provide details on the source and date for that info? A stretch, but perhaps some possibility of a move of 512 to one of the flotillas I identified as candidates?
  9. Klambie,

    The sources are the Green List dated 5 Jun 44 for the composition of 526 Flotilla, and the 8 Cdn Inf Bde Gp Landing Table dated 2 May 44 for the LTINs.

    I do not think that LCA 512 moving to another flotilla before D Day is likely. In case of a deficiency in craft in an LSI, the preferred choice would be to allocate a craft from a reserve flotilla rather than from another LSI which already has all its craft marked up for D Day too. This would only displace the problem.

    May I ask why LCA 512, and why the QOR on NAN WHITE? Apart from the reference to Bernières, I cannot see any hint, in the linked article about Ted Emmings, to either. Could that reference be a case of "evolving memories", quite frequent (and perfectly understandable) with veterans (and with everybody really), or simply a misinformed journalist's creative addition? For some such people JUNO equates Bernières (often because of the "Canada House" there)...

    In any case, either Ted Emmings was in LCA 512, but did not carry QOR troops and was not supposed to land at Bernières, or he did land QOR troops at Bernières, but then he was not in LCA 512.

    From the same sources, here is the composition of the various LCA Flotillas carrying QOR troops. In bold are the craft known to have been lost during Operation NEPTUNE, June-July 1944 (but not necessarily on D Day proper). Only ten out of the nineteen craft from Monowai carried QOR troops.

    LTIN 1428 to 1437:
    LSI(L) SS Monowai (MW) (J30)
    544 Assault Flotilla – ten LCA (197, 208, 280, 289, 462, 683, 1035, 1057, 1091, 1092)
    556 Assault Flotilla – nine LCA (565, 728, 729, 851, 918, 919, 946, 948, 1034)

    LTIN 1451 to 1456:
    LSI(H) HMS Duke of Wellington (DW) (J32)
    506 Assault Flotilla – six LCA (416, 467, 519, 525, 768, 803)

    LTIN 1457 to 1462:
    LSI(H) SS Isle of Guernsey (IG) (J33)
    518 Assault Flotilla – six LCA (650, 710, 835, 841, 844, 881)

    Could you post the action reports by Flotilla commanders? They sound interesting!

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  10. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Michel, thanks, my understanding of the Green List is superficial, so I was thinking of a larger gap in dates. 5 June does not leave much room.

    I believe he is in contact with the Juno Beach Centre and from them I have seen the added the details LCA 512 and landed QORs in front of Canada House. Having ruled out that connection, more info is needed. I take your suggestion that Juno has come to equal Canada House/QOR in minds as a valid one.

    Until we learn more, my last question would be did 512 survive D-Day? If yes, that would be further proof that he has misidentified the craft. He is clear that his sank.

    I will work on the Flotilla reports (there are LSTs as well)

    (Edited to add) Not sure it's a track I would pursue, but is it possible to link a Coxn to his LCA?
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  11. LCA 512 is not in the list of craft lost during Operation NEPTUNE:
    British vessels lost at sea in World War 2 - landing ships and craft, LSI, LST, LCT, LCG, LCV, LCVP etc

    Additionally, only one fatal casualty is listed for LCA 512 on D Day and thereafter, not two as should be per Ted Emmings' story:
    LCA.512, Normandy invasion, operation Overlord
    MCDONALD, Owen F, Stoker 1c, P/KX 179264, MPK
    Source: Royal Navy casualties, killed and died, June 1944

    Of course, the above lists might be incomplete, so a better way would be to check whether LCA 512 is still listed in the Green List after the one dated 5 June 1944.

  12. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Below is some information on LCA 512.



    LCA 512 - Built by Camper & Nicholson and was completed on the 10th April 1943.
    “Written Off Charge” 7th August 1945

    The following information is from the Green List.

    3/7/44 - 526 Assault Flotilla, HMS Queen Emma. State “A”. Shuttle Service Landing Ships and Craft Embarked.

    4/9/44 - 526 Assault Flotilla, HMS Queen Emma. State “D”. Shuttle Service Landing Ships and Craft Embarked.

    25/12/44 - HMS Turtle. Poole. State “D”. Poole. Portsmouth Command

    21/5/45 - Not yet received from B.A.A. - Portsmouth Command

    6/8/45 - Not yet received from B.A.A. - Portsmouth Command

    13/8/45 - Not listed
  13. First class information as usual Danny, thanks!

    This rules out LCA 512 as Ted Emming' craft then.

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