I was wondering if the camouflage scheme on the Avro Lancaster ever changed? And why didn't they just paint the aircraft black?
If they painted the entire planes black, together with Wellingtons, Stirlings and Halifaxes, Humbrol would have gone broke for the excessive unsold stock of #29 Dark Eartth and #30 Dark Green in its early years
Cos they wherent always used at night, I guess??? If your getting in the wheres and whys of camo your in for a confusing time... Kev
Just my 2 penith and I may or may not be stating the obvious. The basic principles of Cam are: Shape. Shine. Shadow. Spacing. Silhouette. Movement. Obviously some of these won't be appropriate to an aircraft but you could probably apply them in some form or another. For me Bomber Command's Lancasters were in the main used for night raids hence the black underneath. The coloured cam on top would be more appropriate to make the aircraft harder to see from above especially in reconnaissance photo's. If they were black all over they would most certainly silhouette more I guess the same would apply to why Spitfires and the like were painted 'duck egg blue' underneath. Just my :twocents:
Black is Black ........................ oh no it's not Quote from RAF Night Black/Lamp Black - FineScale.com Forums by antoni "Night was first developed in 1937 as a countermeasure to searchlights and for which it was effective. The existing Black paint in use had only Carbon Black pigment and consequently was very soft, polishing easily and becoming shiny. Night was produced to DTD 308 standard, and was a Type S paint meaning smooth. It contained Carbon Black and Ultramarine pigments. It was therefore not a true black but a dark grey or gunmetal colour. The Ultramarine was added to harden the paint, not to alter the colour. Because it was more durable than the black paint that had been in use up until then, it was deemed suitable for other purposes, e.g., propellers, serial numbers. At the start of WW II trials were being carried out at the AAEE and 85 Squadron to develop a new matt black camouflage paint that would have a non-reflective surface. This was developed into RMD 2A Special Night which was promulgated as the finish for the under surfaces of night bombers from January 1940.RMD 2A Special Night contained only Carbon Black pigment but of a larger size than used in DTD 308 Night. This gave it a very sooty black appearance sometimes described as lamp black and was very rough to the touch like sandpaper. RMD 2A was chemically different to DTD 308 and faulty application led to both poor adhesion and a characteristic white staining. Because of shortages of RMD 2A Special Night, the Air Ministry issued instructions that DTD 308 Night be used as for the first coat, i.e., DTD 308 Night be used as an undercoat. Coupled with the adhesion problems aircraft took on a very patchy appearance. On 30th Oct 1940 a meeting was held at the Air Ministry at which the subject of night fighter camouflage was discussed. The outcome was an agreement that night fighters be painted Matt Black overall. On 24th March 1941 DTD Circular no 144 was issued that explained that night fighter finish was to be RMD 2A Special Night. Comparative trials of two Mosquitoes fitted with different exhaust shrouds resulted in a speed difference of 26 mph. This was found to be due mainly to the slower aircraft being painted with RMD 2A Special Night while the other was painted with DTD 308 Night. This reached the attention of the CinC Fighter Command who, in Memo CS 11061, 5th Feb 1942, urged all production Mosquito night fighters to be finished with DTD 308 Night and all aircraft in service be returned to ASUs for repainting. The adverse affect that RMD 2A Special Night had on performance resulted in its withdrawal from use and replacement with its predecessor DTD 308 Night. There was some confusion between RDM 2A Special Night and DTD 308 Night so in an order dated 11th Oct 1942 DTD 308 Night was renamed DTD 308 Smooth Night."
We went to a lecture last weekend about the RAF raids on the Tirpitz. The Dambuster's Lancs flew to a Russian airfield to mount the raid. Several didn't make it and crash landed. The camoflage was that good the Russki spotter planes couldn't find 'em. The crews spread their parachutes on the aircraft's wings to attract their attention.
We went to a lecture last weekend about the RAF raids on the Tirpitz. The Dambuster's Lancs flew to a Russian airfield to mount the raid. Several didn't make it and crash landed. The camoflage was that good the Russki spotter planes couldn't find 'em. The crews spread their parachutes on the aircraft's wings to attract their attention. I went to that Lecture last weekend to & had my Tirpitz print signed by the vets B)
The subject of camouflage paint has provided a great thread to read, with a very informative post by Wimpy. Regards Tom
My dad was a w/op [woppy] on Lancasters - 463 RAAF Sqdn, Waddington Lincs. He flew prior to and just after D-Day. The operations just after D-Day were either in support of the landed armies or to slow the German response. These ops were flown in daylight and possibly at mid altitude ie about 10,000ft. As far as I know the aircraft were not repainted from 'black' undersides, and patterned / brown-green topside. Should the squadron have been posted to the Asian theatre of operation, they were to have their topside painted white, due to the tropical heat. Phil the aussie
Black is Black ........................ oh no it's not Quote from RAF Night Black/Lamp Black - FineScale.com Forums by antoni "Night was first developed in 1937 as a countermeasure to searchlights and for which it was effective. The existing Black paint in use had only Carbon Black pigment and consequently was very soft, polishing easily and becoming shiny. Night was produced to DTD 308 standard, and was a Type S paint meaning smooth. It contained Carbon Black and Ultramarine pigments. It was therefore not a true black but a dark grey or gunmetal colour. The Ultramarine was added to harden the paint, not to alter the colour. Because it was more durable than the black paint that had been in use up until then, it was deemed suitable for other purposes, e.g., propellers, serial numbers. At the start of WW II trials were being carried out at the AAEE and 85 Squadron to develop a new matt black camouflage paint that would have a non-reflective surface. This was developed into RMD 2A Special Night which was promulgated as the finish for the under surfaces of night bombers from January 1940.RMD 2A Special Night contained only Carbon Black pigment but of a larger size than used in DTD 308 Night. This gave it a very sooty black appearance sometimes described as lamp black and was very rough to the touch like sandpaper. RMD 2A was chemically different to DTD 308 and faulty application led to both poor adhesion and a characteristic white staining. Because of shortages of RMD 2A Special Night, the Air Ministry issued instructions that DTD 308 Night be used as for the first coat, i.e., DTD 308 Night be used as an undercoat. Coupled with the adhesion problems aircraft took on a very patchy appearance. On 30th Oct 1940 a meeting was held at the Air Ministry at which the subject of night fighter camouflage was discussed. The outcome was an agreement that night fighters be painted Matt Black overall. On 24th March 1941 DTD Circular no 144 was issued that explained that night fighter finish was to be RMD 2A Special Night. Comparative trials of two Mosquitoes fitted with different exhaust shrouds resulted in a speed difference of 26 mph. This was found to be due mainly to the slower aircraft being painted with RMD 2A Special Night while the other was painted with DTD 308 Night. This reached the attention of the CinC Fighter Command who, in Memo CS 11061, 5th Feb 1942, urged all production Mosquito night fighters to be finished with DTD 308 Night and all aircraft in service be returned to ASUs for repainting. The adverse affect that RMD 2A Special Night had on performance resulted in its withdrawal from use and replacement with its predecessor DTD 308 Night. There was some confusion between RDM 2A Special Night and DTD 308 Night so in an order dated 11th Oct 1942 DTD 308 Night was renamed DTD 308 Smooth Night." My father may have formulated this. He was head of ICI Paints division Lab. during the war. He was a modest man but helped me with camo colours when I was a youngster making and painting WW2 model aircraft. Humbrol made most of the authentic colours. He gave me Air Ministry standards booklets, I still have one. I have a photograph from 1946ish of the final dinner of SOBAC, the laision group between the Air Ministry and Industry.
Its quite a tricky subject and more complex to the layman in the street. Modelmaking enthusiasts and collectors of diecast aircraft have endless discussions about the correct camouflage and combinations thereof on their planes. Rare colour and black & white photos from the time add often more questions to the debate. But one has to remember 'operational aircraft during wartime had to be turned round under extreme conditions when sometimes the wrong conditions for painting were present, the correct paint was not available etc. So anomalies often occured. So one plane in a squadron was often quite unlike any other exactly.
