July 1940- Operation Catapult; was it necessary?

From "England's Last War Against France: Fighting Vichy 1940-1942", by Colin Smith:

..."Darlan and Pétain had already given the American Ambassador William Bullitt a surprising glimpse of an Anglophobia that Gensoul’s casualties were about to fan to furnace heat. Bullitt had these first informal chats with the new regime at Clermont-Ferrand, about 40 miles south-west of Vichy, and what they had to tell him had clearly come as a dreadful shock. At the beginning of an encrypted 2,500–word telegram sent, as usual, directly to President Roosevelt he told him:

The impression which emerges from these conversations is the extraordinary one that the French leaders desire to cut loose from all that France has represented during the past two generations, that their physical and moral defeat has been so absolute that they have accepted completely for France the fate of becoming a province of Nazi Germany. Moreover, in order that they may have as many companions in misery as possible they hope that England will be rapidly and completely defeated by Germany."

"...Darlan went on to say that he felt absolutely certain that Great Britain would be completely conquered by Germany within 5 weeks unless Great Britain should surrender sooner … For his part he did not believe that the British government or people would have the courage to stand against serious German air bombardments and he expected a surrender after a few heavy attacks. I remarked that he seemed to regard this prospect with considerable pleasure and when he did not deny this but smiled I said that it seemed to me that the French would like to have England conquered in order that Germany might have as many conquered provinces to control as possible and that France might become the favored province. He smiled again and nodded … It was in his opinion certain that Hitler intended to bring the entire continent of Europe including England into a single customs union and that he desired to make France his leading vassal state."

Politicians!

 

I realize that this is an old thread, but re-reading it and this post that I am quoting caused me to remember reading a Long time ago about Churchill actually offering to Unify France and Great Britain.

I cannot recall the book I read, but just searching I found this article and although it is on Wiki it corroborated my Memory.

There may have been and there may still be rivalry between Britain and France, but this offer was made at a very dark Moment in both countries history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_Union

Regards
Tom

 

He says the military leaders of France were misled by their generals at the time of the French collapse, telling that "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet, "In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken". Some chicken (huge cheers). Some neck!" (more cheers and applause). WSC in Canada

 

I think to debate this you have to examine the dynamics of politics and the unfolding of the war in the uncertain summer of 1940.

As the situation in France grew graver by the day,Churchill's lateral thinking took over.To keep France in the war against Hitler he proposed that there should be union between Great Britain and France without a second thought to any constitutional aspects.Churchill went on to think this way,not by union,but by any means possible to keep Russia in the war, at a time of the outstanding German victories on the East Front,threatened to initiate a general collapse of Stalin's regime....war materiel support by Great Britain and the US followed and a previously thought potential enemy was brought into alliance.

The anti British feeling arose from the British evacuation from Dunkirk and the tragic events at Mers-el-Kebir where the French refused to give a satisfactory guarantee that the ships would not be handed over to the Germans.

Regarding the British resistance to Hitler,French anglophobia manifested itself in the Vichyites. The hatred of Great Britain was deep set and fanatical.It was traditionally a right wing and Navy (as opposed to the Army) phenomenon and became a principle in the Vichy leadership.Remember the chaos of France fighting for her soul in the summer of 1940 provided an opportunity for those who detested the French Third Republic and wished an alignment with people of the same ilk, to lay down the new order.

For instance, Laval"hoped ardently that the English would be defeated".His successor, Admiral Darlan was hysterical in his anti British tirades,some of his political traits based on his scorn for supposed Britain's liberal institutions.

Darlan went on to declare in December 1940......"Even if Germany wins the present war,France will,given the strength and character of her people,and German weakness, eventually be the dominating continental force.....A German victory is really better for France,than a British victory"

As regards the political will of France before the Armistice,Paul Reynaud on 12 June 1940 addressed his cabinet as follows...You think that Hitler is another Wilhelm I,the old gentleman who took Alsace Lorraine and that was all.But Hitler is Genghis Khan.

The stark reality is that Vichy France with its vassal alliance with the Third Reich was an enemy of Great Britain and would have been an occupied country had it not been for a largely unknown French Colonel who spoke pretentiously on 18 June 1940 "in the name of France".

What followed at Mers el Kebir was Great Britain,the underdog in the conflict with the Third Reich,adopting a policy of defending her interests against the possibility that the vassal state of Vichy would turn over her means of waging war to an enemy who threatened the very existence of Great Britain.

 

'Catapult' - Admiralty papers:




http://www.admirals.org.uk/records/adm/adm199/adm199-391_7-31.php

 

Harry,

Very well presented.

Regards
Tom

 

Thanks Tom,

I remember being accosted by a Frenchman in Binic,a small coastal fishing village in Brittany,nearly 30years ago.I was looking at the quite impressive war memorial,close to the harbour area, when this chap suddenly came out from behind the memorial clutching a book.He immediately said to me "You let us down at Dunkirk" in very good English.Another Frenchman interceeded and told me the chap was eccentric....had lost a brother in the war.Apparently he spent his time sat behind the memorial reading books.He obviously recognised English voices from behind the memorial.

Was there a couple of years ago,motoring up to Paimpol,the memorial is still there and equally impressive but the chap must have been long gone.Called in a bar restaurant at about midday...well received..hardly anybody in,then by about 1220,the place was packed.It turns out that it was favourite place to go on Friday for a midday meal.

Other times more cordial,a war veteran,it transpired,in the Dordogne village where we were staying, engaged me in conversation and said he had fought as the Free French in North Africa alongside the 8th Army and was very proud of the fact.

 

Scuttling of the French fleet at Toulon - Wikipedia

"The scuttling of the French fleet at Toulon was orchestrated by Vichy France on 27 November 1942"

The "aftermath" section contrasts the French with the Italians...

"A year later, the Italian naval fleet did what de Gaulle wished the Vichy French had done. They set sail for North Africa after the Italian Armistice in 1943. Almost all major warships of the Regia Marina escaped Italy and were available for Italy after the end of World War II. France had to rebuild its whole navy after the war."

 

Though it is fair to say many of the ships the Italians saved, were subsequently given to Allied countries, as war repatriations.

From wikipedia...

The peace treaty[edit]
The peace treaty signed on 10 February 1947 in Paris was onerous for Regia Marina.
The treaty ordered Italy to put the following ships at the disposals of the victorious nations United States, Soviet Union, Great Britain, France, Greece, Yugoslavia and Albania as war compensation:

• 3 battleships: Giulio Cesare, Italia, Vittorio Veneto;
• 5 cruisers: Emanuele Filiberto Duca d'Aosta, Attilio Regolo, Scipione Africano, Eugenio di Savoia and Eritrea;
• 7 destroyers, 5 of the Soldati class and Augusto Riboty and Alfredo Oriani;
• 6 minesweepers: like Aliseo and Fortunale;
• 8 submarines: 3 of the Acciaio class;
• 1 sailing school ship: Cristoforo Colombo.

 

I did wonder if some of these might be more appropriate contrasts ;-)

Belgian Navy - Wikipedia

Royal Netherlands Navy - Wikipedia

Royal Norwegian Navy - Wikipedia

 

Re. French battleship Strasbourg...

French battleship Strasbourg - Wikipedia



"The armistice specified that Strasbourg and the rest of the French fleet would be demilitarized, and she and several other battleships were stationed in Mers-el-Kébir at the time. Mistakenly under the impression that the Germans sought to seize the ships, the British Force H was sent to either force the ships to continue fighting or to destroy them. When the French refused the ultimatum, the British opened fire, but Strasbourg evaded the British and escaped to Toulon. There, she served as the flagship of the newly-established Forces de haute mer until the Germans attempted to seize the fleet during Case Anton, leading to its destruction in the scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon in November 1942. The wreck was later seized by the Italians, who raised Strasbourg and then started dismantling the ship, and was later taken by the Germans. The vessel was later bombed and sunk a second time by American bombers in August 1944, and was ultimately sold for scrap in 1955."

And : Case Anton - Wikipedia

"Case Anton (German: Fall Anton) was the military occupation of France carried out by Germany and Italy in November 1942. It marked the end of the Vichy regime as a nominally-independent state and the disbanding of its army (the severely-limited Armistice Army), but it continued its existence as a puppet government in Occupied France. One of the last actions of the Vichy armed forces before their dissolution was the scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon to prevent it from falling into Axis hands."

French cruiser Colbert (1928) - Wikipedia



File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-027-1451-10, Toulon, Panzer IV.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Südfrankreich, Toulon.- "Unternehmen Lila".- Panzer IV des II. SS-Panzerkorps im Hafen von Toulon vor brennendem französischen Kriegsschiff; PK 649