IWM and Cecil Beaton; The Long Range Desert Group photos.

Dear folks,

Posted as result of a search for a photograph of Thomas Charles Tristain (LRDG G1 Patrol,late Scots Guards), and with all due deference, and in recognition of their copyright, to the fantastic work that The Imperial War Museum do in their upkeep of Cecil Beaton's wartime photographs.

I very much hope that this type of posting will help in getting more of The IWM collection correctly captioned/catalogued, and most importantly individuals within said photos identified correctly too, whilst there are still such folks around to do it in continuing the work of the dear late John (Jack) Valenti, as well as helping the sterling work of Kuno Gross, Ian Chard, Brendon O'Carroll et al.

And, please understand that my posting here is in no way any criticism of the work of the IWM staff in their upkeep of the collections. They have so much stuff us (older?) and hopefully knowledgeable folks should be helping them out, before it's too late!

Please note that the majority of photos I'll refer to here are currently just described within The IWM Collections as "photographic negative".

So, a start with a couple that I have not seen used in any publication outside of The IWM (which in by no means means that they haven't appeared elsewhere!)

This pertinent extract from "The Years Between 1939-44 Cecil Beaton"; Siwa, spring/summer 1942.

"Clump, clump, clump. A patrol commander came in, heavily-bearded, covered with sand, matted hair on end, sunburned so that the white shining teeth were his most brilliant feature".

Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

IWM CBM 1216 (now identified as Captain Anthony Douglas Northey Hunter MC No.58117)

 

And again.

IWM CBM 1400 (now identified as Captain Anthony Douglas Northey Hunter MC No.58117)

Pertinent extract again from "The Years Between 1939-44 Cecil Beaton"; Siwa, spring/summer 1942.

"He had just returned from an expedition of many months' duration yet his fellow officers welcomed him as if he had returned from short leave. "Had a good time?" " Everything go well?" No doubt on account of the stranger in their midst few questions were asked. Everything was taken quietly as a matter of course. Yet, undoubtedly, this man had come across tremendous excitements".

58117 Anthony Douglas Northey HUNTER, MC, MiD, Royal Scots Fusiliers attached LRDG

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

IWM CBM 1220 "Description Physical description Photographic Negative".

Now identified as Gunner Tom Kelly.

A famous photo of Tom Kelly (IWM CBM 1217 - in which Tom is named) was used in a "cropped for publication" version within an article that appeared in the "Illustrated" magazine in 1942, titled "LONG-RANGE DESERT PATROL".

Tom Kelly was described in said article as; "Gunner Tom Kelly is aged twenty-seven. As fit and as tough as they make them, he comes from Liverpool, where, in his civilian life he was employed as a bricklayer".

Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

P.S. Notwithstanding dear Bill Kennedy Shaw's thoughts on Cecil Beaton, Cecil did take a good photo!

 

IWM CBM 1402 "Description Physical description Photographic Negative".

I've drawn a blank up to now with this serjeant. If anyone can come up with a name to the smiling face it would very much appreciated and an appropriate update made in the IWM Collections listing.

The thought of any relative, surviving family member, then seeing a previously undiscovered photo of a loved one now identified would make it all worthwhile (please note; cropped to highlight possible identifying features)

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

IWM CBM 1501 "Description Physical description Photographic Negative".

Again, unfortunately, another chap that needs identifying. Hopefully someone somewhere will recognise the tattoo, if not the characterful face.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

P.S. I'll message Kuno shortly and ask him to cast his eyes over the thread. With his knowledge and contacts I hope he will be able to identify some of the IWM Collection "unknowns".

 

IWM CBM 1506 "Description Physical description Photographic Negative".

A group photo. One of a few from Cecil Beaton's short visit to The Long Range Desert Group at Siwa.

Captain Hunter on steps in foreground. Other members of his Yeomanry Patrol to rear. Names to faces, faces to names.

And another pertinent extract again from "The Years Between 1939-44 Cecil Beaton"; spring/summer 1942. For any who may take offence, please forgive Cecil Beaton's words, his prose. I think his social skills with folks unfamiliar, and descriptions of, were on occasion somewhat lacking (and I hope I'm not being unkind, or understating things, here).

"Lunch over, the newcomer took us round to see his men. A more grotesquely assorted, more frightening-looking bunch of bandits it would be hard to imagine. Bearded, covered with dust, with blood-shot eyes, they were less of the world of today than like primeval warriors, or timeless inhabitants of a remote hemisphere. One apparition with ginger matting for hair, and red eyes staring from a blue-grey dusty face, looked no more human than an ape."

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Absolutely agreed Adam.

In searching for the elusive Thomas Tristain LRDG photo I've looked through nigh on all of the photos that Cecil Beaton bequeathed, and are available on line. As I've learnt so far this is at least five thousand of the seven thousand that the IWM were left. And thus you do get a few cataloging anomalies!

For me, his portrait photography of the time is pretty much without peer. And more to follow!

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Returning to IWM CBM 1506 (the group photo above), here's an illustration of the difficulty in endeavouring to get "positive" identification of some of the chaps.



On the fantastic resource that is lrdg.org website "Trooper Album" "surname S" page (link here; Long Range Desert Group Preservation Society - Trooper Album - S) the chap circled back row right is named as "Searle, Dave, Lance Corporal 2325417 R.C.S.", yet more recently, in the this year June edition of the equally fantastic "Tracks" Magazine, the chap I've circled back row left, in a great article by David Serle (a relation?) is identified as "Archibald David (Dave) Searle, service number 2325417, parent unit Royal Corps of Signals". The chaps do look very similar, as other of Cecil Beaton's photos do bear out.

I'd plump that the "Tracks" article writer (David Searle) has the correct identification, but a query there is no less. And, absolutely no criticism on my part, just an observation that will hopefully lead to a definitive answer, and updates for The IWM Collections.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Illustrated 24th October 1942
Diegan (sic) and Kelly
Top left and bottom right

 

Snap . And a dodgy one at that!

Please excuse lighting, skew-wiffery, and generally shoddy camera work. Cecil Beaton I ain't!

And thank you Guy. You encouraged me to do some digging out here (found a couple of other items I'd not seen for years - for a different thread at sometime).

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Prompted by the post of Guy Hudson above, the contemporary IWM Cecil Beaton photograph references as used in the "Illustrated" article back in October 1942. Plus some names to faces.

Guy, please excuse the re-use of the image you posted to make what follows easier for me (it's late, and my old eyes have very nearly had enough for the day)



Details as per numbers above are:

1. IWM Collections reference CBM 1212, believed to be Private Matthew DEEGAN, No.2823443.

2. IWM Collections reference CBM 1215, believed to be Trooper Bill BULLOCK, No.553956.

3. IWM Collections reference CBM 2220, no names as of yet (being looked into).

4. IWM Collections reference CBM 1214, believed to be Private W H "Taffy" REECE, No.7614769.

5. IWM Collections reference CBM 1219*, n.b. not available (possibly not digitised) via IWM Collections website, and again, no name as of yet.

6. IWM Collections reference CBM 1217, Gunner Tom KELLY No.898707 (as previously mentioned in earlier posts within this thread).

* Re photo numbered 5 within the "Illustrated" article, IWM CBM 1219 appears on page 69 of the IWM's own publication "CECIL BEATON THEATRE OF WAR" published in 2012 (as shown below for reference purposes). Why it is not currently available via the IWM Collections website I have no idea.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Hopefully this photo from IWM Collections will be of interest (one for Brendan O'Carroll given his specialist knowledge of New Zealand LRDG chaps methinks) as it may just be a photo that's not surfaced or been recognised from the archives before now.

IWM CBM 1850.

I think (and yes, hope) this is Trooper Alfred M SAUNDERS, New Zealand Army No.1329. There is no name given (as per thousands of the other images) on the IWM Collections website.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Hi Jim,

Love the thread, a noble effort to put faces to names. Please keep up the great work!

I've just taken a look at Alfred M Saunders Online Cenotaph entry and helpfully there is a photo of him in uniform from 1943. I'm no expert, but I'm not convinced that the above man is him. The man in the image appears to have a longer and narrower face than Alfred (see below). Alfred could have put on a bit of weight, being in New Zealand on furlough, when the photo was taken, but I still don't think it's a match. Happy to be proven wrong though! I suspect Brendan O'Carroll will be best placed to make a call.

Edit: Because Alfred is smiling, perhaps that is disguising the length of his face?

 

Alf Saunders compare

 

Andy, and Guy! Thanks so much to you both for your kind words and help with this, always appreciated chaps.

My go ID wise was based on just one feature, distance twixt bottom lip and point (round!) of chin, using the photo of Alfred in his "lemon squeezer" here (click on the link and scroll down a little)

Long Range Desert Group Preservation Society - Trooper Album - S

Once again, thanks for your help with this chaps.

I will keep looking!

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Alf Saunders (compare ii)
Jim, I think you are right with your identification, well done.

 

Not sitting on my hands with this folks.
I've just sent a first update to IWM Collections using CBM 1212 as the starter (posted here as an example so that folks who wish can see the process for getting a IWM Collections description/listing updated and or changed) And note, that's any listing!

If you see something on the IWM Collections website that you know to be wrong, or lacking, please do help to put it right. For me, it's in the hope of leaving more accurate information for the future generations.

So, the example of CBM 1212. This is how it was (is still)



And this is what I've submitted by way of the "feedback" button within the page.







For any future "feedback" submitted I will be less verbose! (and yes, I did put my email address in and hit the "submit" button

Kind regards, and to all who have helped thank you, always,

Jim.

 

Cheers Guy, very much appreciated and great to see the "lemon squeezer" image side by side with the Cecil Beaton one.

I won't be submitting an update to IWM Collections on this one yet though. For me, Brendan O'Carroll, or Kuno, or any of the LRDG specialist chaps with much more knowledge than me should have the call on this one.

Again, thanks for your assistance Guy, great stuff!

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Nice work gents! I hadn't seen the photo from the LRDG website, but I'll change my tune now. The three photos are probably a good illustration of the effect of the elements and strain on a soldier over time.