Italian Partisans Information

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Gazz, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. Gazz

    Gazz Active Member

    I have found some information (see below) that may be going in the right direction the reference is signed 2 Pretoria Scottish but after finding the information below they may also have been known as the 2nd Transvaal Scottish who were in action at El Alamein and the fall of Tobruk. Was Capt E R Mclean possibly an escaped POW after his capture at Tobruk. Is there a Mclean on any of the POW lists that was in the South African Army, Transvaal Scottish?

    The regiment was formed in Pretoria on 1 July 1913 as the 12th Infantry (Pretoria Regiment) – a unit of the Active Citizen Force – by the amalgamation of several units: the Pretoria Company of the Transvaal Scottish, the Central South African Railway Volunteers, the Northern Mounted Rifles and the Pretoria detachment of the Transvaal Cycle and Motor Corps.

    In North Africa the 2nd Transvaal Scottish, together with two battalions consisting of members of the South African Police, served in the 6th South African Infantry Brigade. They assisted in the construction of the famous "Alamein Box". 6th South African Infantry Brigade attacked the fortified town of Sollum on 11 January 1942 as part of Operation Battleaxe and went on to fight in the battles of Bardia, Acroma Keep and Gazala. At Bardia, Sollum and Halfaya both German and Italian troops were forced to surrender to the Brigade. The majority of the battalion, along with the entire South African 2nd Division, was captured when the "fortress" of Tobruk fell at the end of the Battle of Gazala.[4]
     
  2. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Here's the relevant page for officers taken from the Imperial Prisoners of War in Italy document WO 392 21 National Archives and posted next to the cover page. No McLean, as I said in an earlier post.
    south african forces.JPG

    The only way to find out about the Captain is to obtain a copy of his service records from Pretoria.

    Vitellino
     
  3. tedfromscrubs

    tedfromscrubs Junior Member

    Hello Gazz. Vitellino is doing sterling work looking into your father's partisan activities. I thought I'd also point you in the direction of this organisation which exists to commemmorate the bravery of the Italians who sheltered escaped PoWs. Monte San Martino Trust - Monte San Martino Trust They are in the process of putting their archive online and if you would care to share your father's story I'm sure they would be delighted.
    If your father was imprisoned near Fermo that would have been PG70 at Monte Urano. You might want to Google that since there is info online. Plus a book written by Ken de Souza "Escape from Ascoli" describes the camp and his daring escape.
    Another extremely knowledgeable source can be found here The Society - WW2 Escape Lines Memorial Society This site is pan-Euroepan but they know a lot about Italy.
    Good luck with your researches

    Anne
     
  4. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    It might be worth contacting the Nembo Association via their website Associazione Nazionale "Nembo" to see if they can shed light on the Nembo Division L'Aquilla

    South African service records were moved to the DoD archives in Pretoria sometime ago and were no longer available to the public. I will try and find out whether they are now available.
    Diane
     
  5. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Am quoting my own thread here. The Nembo Regiment was set up in September 44 AFTER Cpl. Weir had rejoined his lines.

    I have tried to find a group of partisans named Nembo in the area round L'Aquila but without success.

    However, I will contact the Nembo Association as suggested if anyone thinks it could useful in throwing some light on Capt. McLean.

    Vitellino

    Edited:

    I have just looked at their website. There is one line about the Regiment which was set up as above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  6. PG70 FERMO (MONTURANO)
    Hi Gazz
    My father was in the camp the same time as your own according to his E&E report with a comment that of the 17 prisoners I have located in the Plemo work camp PG62/51 so far, ten passed through Fermo.
    I have a small file on Fermo which indicates it was a tough camp with poor food including a dish named ''skilly'' which dad mentioned to me which was described as '' hot water in which a bone had been stirred for flavour''
    Send me a PM and I will send what I have
    Trevor
     
  7. Gazz

    Gazz Active Member

    Thank you to everyone who has contributed with information, this is a very helpful and friendly forum.Trevor and Vitellino I have sent PMs.
    Thanks again

    Gary
     
  8. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    South African service records were moved to the DoD archives in Pretoria sometime ago and were no longer available to the public. I will try and find out whether they are now available.
    Diane[/QUOTE]
    I have e-mailed the South African DoD archives requesting the service record of Captain McLean. I will let you know their reply. Though please bear in mind that something like this request is not top of their priorities.
    Diane
     
    vitellino likes this.
  9. Gazz

    Gazz Active Member

    That is fantastic! Diane, it is much appreciated and I will look forwrd to the response but don't worry I know it can take some time my, Dads service records took 6 months to arrive. This forum is amazing.

    Thanks Again
     
  10. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Hi I have just received an e-mail from the DoD archives and they cannot find any record of Capt. McLean.
    Diane
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Gazz

    Gazz Active Member

    Many thanks Diane, the search continues.......
     
  12. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Now we are all stumped!!

    Pleased to be in such good company,

    Vitellino
     
  13. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Is it possible that for some reason the note could have been embellished with Cpt Mclean's signature etc to make it look more authentic?
     
  14. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I am beginning to think that ''Cpt. McLean'' was an assumed identity.
     
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  15. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    An estimate of the proportion of Allied POWs ( not partisans ) returning from the continent of Europe who completed atrocity forms, or "Q" forms, was made in May 1945, and the answer was a mere 3%. It is remarkable that there are so many files concerning "Fermo".

    When Kew reopens it would be worth a visit to check in the loose cards in box WO353/14 for any reference to a statement by a Capt. McLean ( no matter that he was a South African.) These are viewed in the Invigilation Room.

    The files will overlap but a search for "Fermo" in Advanced Search limited to TS26 and WO311 returns 12 files ( ! contrast JAG London files on Far East camps, where there are about 15 files out of 363 for the whole of the "Far East" in WO311.)

    The introduction to file series WO353 explains the overlap, plus the possibility of BAOR files ( see WO 309 ).

    "WO 353 War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department: War Crimes, Europe, Card Indexes, Second World War. | War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department: War Crimes, Europe, Card Indexes, Second World War | This series consists of card indexes of the Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department relating to war crimes in Europe during Second World War. The indexes were compiled c1944 to 1948. The series comprises six card indexes: an accused index (alphabetical); a witness index (alphabetical); a dead victims index (alphabetical); a place names index (alphabetical); a numerical index of camps; and a numerical index to the Judge Advocate General, Military Deputy FS files. All the indexes carry FS references (with or without prefix) which refer to files in WO 311. The numerical index in pieces 23 and 24 contains those cards from which the Director of Army Legal Services (DALS) compiled its MD/JAG inventory, on which, in turn, the WO 311 list is based. Some index cards in pieces 23 and 24 constitute partial indexes to TS 26/174 -802 and WO 309. These cards are marked with the following information which is valuable for cross-reference: (1) Many cards in pieces 23 and 24 bear UK G/B number references, which are Charge Numbers quoted in TS 26 cases; (2) A block of cards under reference FS 76 in piece 24 bear BAOR 15228/C numbers (and exceptionally other BAOR references) which relate to files in WO 309. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew"

    These are the TS26 ( Treasury Solicitor, or British National Office in UNWCC terms ) and Judge Advocate General ( London ) files. "MD/JAG/FS" stands for " Military Department/ Judge Advocate General / File Series ".

    The files may throw up AG3(V/W) file references, but JAG eventually took over their files. ( Adjutant General 3 ( Violation of the Laws and Customs of War ).


    TS 26/718 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: murder of Lance Corporal Warner and Private Walker | Fermo: murder of Lance Corporal Warner and Private Walker. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B49

    TS 26/725 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: murder of a British prisoner | Fermo: murder of a British prisoner. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B57

    TS 26/735 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: murder of J Walther | Fermo: murder of J Walther. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B68

    TS 26/739 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: murder of Signalman N Leach | Fermo: murder of Signalman N Leach. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B73

    TS 26/753 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: general | Fermo: general. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B94

    TS 26/796 Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General: War Crimes Papers. WORLD WAR II, 1939-1945. Alleged Italian War Crimes: Charges. | Fermo: wounding of Trooper J Jones | Fermo: wounding of Trooper J Jones. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1939 31/12/1945 Former Reference Dep: Charge Number: UK-I/B141

    WO 311/323 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | Fermo, Italy: killing of two British POWs | Fermo, Italy: killing of two British POWs. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/05/1944 31/07/1946 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS 42/16 and 40/2

    WO 311/326 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy: shooting of British POW | Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy: shooting of British POW. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/07/1945 31/07/1945 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS 42/30

    WO 311/1184 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | UK charges against Italian war criminals: charge No 57; shooting of ex-prisoner of war in... | UK charges against Italian war criminals: charge No 57; shooting of ex-prisoner of war in Fermo, Italy, 19 May 1944. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/06/1944 30/04/1946 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS/40/7

    WO 311/1185 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | Assault and ill-treatment of British prisoner of war at Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy, December... | Assault and ill-treatment of British prisoner of war at Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy, December 1943. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1944 31/12/1944 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS/40/14

    WO 311/1198 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | Ill-treatment of prisoners of war at Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy, November 1941 to August... | Ill-treatment of prisoners of war at Camp PG 70, Fermo, Italy, November 1941 to August 1943. | With photograph Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/05/1945 30/04/1946 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS/42/15

    WO 311/1221 Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services: War Crimes Files (MD/JAG/FS and other series). | Unlawful wounding of escaping prisoner of war at PG 66, Capua, Italy, January 1943: shooting... | Unlawful wounding of escaping prisoner of war at PG 66, Capua, Italy, January 1943: shooting of British prisoner of war at PG 70, Fermo, Italy, February 1943. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/10/1945 30/06/1946 Former Reference Dep: MD/JAG/FS/42/55
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  16. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I think I am losing it...we know from his E&E report that Cpl. J E Weir was held in PG 70 Fermo but do we seriously think that ''Capt. McLean'' could have been held in PG 70 as well? As an officer wouldn't he have been held in one of the officers' camps, for example PG 47, PG 49, PG 21?

    Why would we be looking for him in the War Crimes Reports?

    The said ''Capt, McLean'' wrote that Cpl.Weir was under his command. What command? Is he suggesting that he led a band of partisans in the Aquila region? And what about the 'Nembo' partisans?

    Vitellino
     
  17. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I think I am losing it...we know from his E&E report that Cpl.Weir was held in PG 70 Fermo but do we seriously think that ''Capt. McLean'' could have been held in PG 70 Fermo too? As an officer wouldn't he have been held in one of the officers' camps, for example PG 47, PG 49, PG 21?

    Vitellino
     
  18. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    No you are not wrong at all, but then I am not saying which camp "McLean" was in. Just excluding any possibility that the JAG's office staff noted on a file card a name that was on a file kept by "them upstairs." It is my experience with the WO356 witness cards, kept by the same staff, which would make me curious. Obviously any name of a potential witness would be checked. A lot easier with WO356 because that is on microfilm outside of the main search room at Kew, and not a question of ordering separate boxes. Unless, of course, that Kew doesn't get rid of the microfilm readers, few as they are, and replace them with more dining tables and juke boxes !
     
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  19. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    I agree that it might be worth checking if/when that is possible, but knowing who ''McLean'' was isn't all that relevant in that Cpl. Weir wasn't recaptured, he was helped by a family near L'Aquila ( I have had quite a lot of correspondence with Gazz via a private message on this topic) and he did make it to Allied lines.

    I will have one last attempt to look through Italian sources,

    Vitellino
     
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  20. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Drawn a complete blank. Have even checked the American enrolment and POW lists on their website NARA AAD.
    R.I.P.
     

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