Invasion attempt? - Shingle street

If there was an attempted landing (and I have no idea either way) then it puzzles me why it should be referred to as an attemped invasion which is likely to be no more correct than referring to the Allied Dieppe raid as an attempted invasion which it clearly wasn't.

An invasion would have required huge resources and the build-up would have left evidence in continental europe.

It does't seem to me impossible that there was some sort of limited landing party intended to have a look-see.

 

IIRC there were two major "burned bodies in German uniforms" scares in the UK, over the early and midsummer of 1940. One was so widespread and apparently convincing that Churchill had to make a statement in the Commons about it, and said that he would order an investigation. Both "incidents" are recorded in Peter Fleming's Operation Sealion.

Mind you...given the barge-busting that went on, and the convoy battle in the Channel, even fighting right down to the sea at places like Calais in May/June...one would have thought that German bodies in the Channel were relatively common...

 

I should be getting this in a few days:

Notes On German Preparations For The Invasion Of The United Kingdom - Naval & Military Press

I'll have a butchers to see if it gets a mention

 

SHOULD have noted that nothing ever came of EITHER "bodies in the Channel" rumour - but Churchill's statement in the House - forced by growing UNcommented-on-officially talk about it and newspaper reports...indicates how seriously that one at least was taken.

 

Derfla,

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Regards
Tom

 

The website linked by Defla has a number of errors in the section titled 'Why the secrecy?' Ronald Ashford, its author, claims that:
'Winston Churchill knew of this disloyalty by several members of his cabinet including Lord Halifax, Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain- all prepared to Surrender Britain to save themselves.'

Baldwin ceased to be a Cabinet member after he stood down as Prime Minister in 1937 and was highly unlikely to be recalled by Churchill, who blamed him rather than Chamberlain for Britain's lack of military preparedness. According to Fateful Choices by Ian Kershaw, in late May 1940 Halifax wanted to discover what Hitler's terms would be but Churchill persuaded the rest of the War Cabinet, including Chamberlain, that this would be a mistake. Even Halifax argued only that Britain should find out what Hitler's terms would be, not that it should automatically accept them. Churchill convinced Chamberlain and the 2 Labour members of the War Cabinet, Attlee and Greenwood, that the terms would be unacceptable and that entering into negotiations would destroy British morale.

Ashford also says that:
'Hess, Hitler's deputy had flown to Scotland to meet with his friends, the Duke of Hamilton and the Duke of Kent. The three planned to fly to Switzerland to negotiate a peace agreement through British and foreign dignitaries. As it happened, Hess had been detained as a prisoner which saved his life- the flying boat which had been taking the others crashed on the Isle of Mull.'

Shingle Street was allegedly invaded in August 1940. Hess flew to Scotland in May 1941 and the air crash that killed the Duke of Kent, but not the Duke of Hamilton, happened in August 1942.

1940: The Secret War at Shingle Street

 

Ashford also says that:
'Hess, Hitler's deputy had flown to Scotland to meet with his friends, the Duke of Hamilton and the Duke of Kent.


Unfortunately IIRC the ONLY time the MARQUIS of Hamilton (he's Duke at the minute, he was the old duke's son when it happened) ever met the Reichsfuhrer was when he shook Hess' hand once at the Berlin Olympics!!!

 

Ditto THIS is a bit dubious...

According to Fateful Choices by Ian Kershaw, in late May 1940 Halifax wanted to discover what Hitler's terms would be but Churchill persuaded the rest of the War Cabinet, including Chamberlain, that this would be a mistake. Even Halifax argued only that Britain should find out what Hitler's terms would be, not that it should automatically accept them. Churchill convinced Chamberlain and the 2 Labour members of the War Cabinet, Attlee and Greenwood, that the terms would be unacceptable and that entering into negotiations would destroy British morale

Fear of German demands wasn't even HALF the issue at the time - Churchill and others were far more worried in late May about what the ITALIANS would "charge" as their fee for facilitating talks I.E.....Malta...for that would make the Middle East untenable in the short run. See Montefiore's Dunkirk.

 

What CAN'T however be ignored was that Halifax was a disobedient bastard at best!!! Despite the decisions of first the War Cabinet and then the FULL cabinet during DYNAMO - he kept on with covert attempts to contact the Germans...

In July there were a number of unofficial contact between Lord Lothian in Washington and the German ambassador there. Word of this got back to Churchill - who blew a fuse Well, understandably!

FIRST he ordered Halifax to order Lothian to halt ALL contact with the German ambassador...putting Halifax on the spot with regards to his OWN role in directing Lothian...

THEN Churchill bypassed Halifax entirely and himself ordered Lothian to stop all contacts Both messages are on the numbered Whitehall despatches record IIRC.

Halifax was soon moved on to Washington himself if I remember correctly...the wages of sin...

(there's also more than a few hints that Halifax was mixed up in the potential coup being talked up by Bill Tennant and a couple of other RN officers...that he at least KNEW what was being planned and didn't exactly protest...!)

 

it never happened, everywhere there was a Coast watch, including me in Poole Dorset at the time... all bloody night in the home guard.
Sapper

 

Thanks tom

 

I was reading a book today, Dangerous Coastline 1939-1945 by Derek Hart published about 1995. He talked about his childhood in Birchington (Thanet) in East Kent. He says that troops told his parents that if they saw yellow lights on the sea horizon this was a signal an invasion had started. One night the light appeared and the family waited to be evacuated with other local families. They were then told by a Constable to stand down and from Pegwell / Sandwich Bay direction came an orange glow in the darkness. In the weeks that followed they were told a german invasion had been attempted on the Sandwich flats and oil on the sea had been ignited. Germans were supposed to have been caught on barbed wire and lying along the shore for weeks but no one could get to them because of mines in the area. Make of it what you will, seems Shingle Street isn't the only place to have this legend.

 

He says that troops told his parents that if they saw yellow lights on the sea horizon this was a signal an invasion had started.


At least THIS part of the story is true - if a little askew. The Auxiliary Patrol - really just a "net" of several hundred motored yatchs and fishingboats that wnet out night after night to monitor British coastal waters off the South Coast between the destroyer patrols and the shore - were to use coloured flares/rockets if they didn't have radios - to report encounters with enemy shipping.

But it could be signalling anything from an invasion flotilla to a single s-boat on a mining run...they had FIVE different reporting codes IIRC.

Incidently - reading Brian Lavery's "We Shall Fight On The Beaches" recently - the Isle of Thanet area was one of the parts of East Kent reckoned LEAST likely to be invaded!!!

 

Nice story about the German invasion...It never happened

 

You've mentioned twice now it didn't happen Sapper so I don't know why you feel you need to repeat it, it doesn't add to anything you already said. I would have to see evidence to believe anything like it did happen. The one addition I have though further to my last post is that this evening I was chatting to my cousin and her husband who I don't see too often. When I mentioned this story he told me my father had a similar conversation with him years a go. The story goes, my father, who was a POW, was shown a photograph by a camp guard later during the war taken supposedly during an aborted landing on the English coast. My father recognised the site. I have to presume if this was true it would have to be a site in Thanet as he lived here all his 82 years. I have no evidence other than heresay. You take it for what it is worth.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1573204733857001476&postID=2956210034967977803

 

I cannot understand this supposed invasion conspiracy. If it happened why on earth would Britain even attempt to cover it up? It's nonsense. Look at the propaganda victory Goebbels scored with the Dieppe raid.

Even if it was kept quiet to allay peoples' fears at the time, there would be absolutely nothing to achieve by keeping it secret even a year or two later. It's just a crazy theory, with zero evidence, zero credibility and I have no idea why it persists.

Lee

 

Zeppman - honestly (and I've no axe to grind here) can you see a German soldier in a failed invasion attempt having time on his hands to take pictures?

Plying his Leica would be the last thing on his mind - saving his @arris would be right up there on his scale of priorities...

One thing it's worth noting is the long list of disinformation tricks the Germans attempted or successfully played on the British during the war, low level stuff like the Me110 Jaguar, or the legendary He100 monoplane fighter etc...

POWs could write home....?

 

One thing it's worth noting is the long list of disinformation tricks the Germans attempted or successfully played on the British during the war, low level stuff like the Me110 Jaguar, or the legendary He100 monoplane fighter etc...

POWs could write home....?

That was a two-way street Phylo. I linked to my article on the British Underground Propaganda Committee in this thread when it originally started a couple of years back.

Much of the 'evidence' given for Shingle Street seems to based on the deliberate rumours spread by Britain. The false invasion rumours seem to be partly a blowback caused by them.

It's like the RAF dropping wooden bombs on the German wooden aerodrome story that is floating around. This joke appears to have been concocted by the UPC. They at least wanted to disseminate the joke in 1940. William L. Shirer used a version of it in his Berlin Diary, as indeed he mentions Britain's secret weapon that could set the sea on fire - a rumour also concocted by the UPC.

In my article I originally said it was impossible to say if it was Shirer who gave the UPC the story about the wooden bombs or vice versa. But as there are other examples of UPC rumours included in Berlin Diary, it seems increasing likely that Shirer was fed these stories through the UPC after his return from Berlin.

Lee

 

as indeed he mentions Britain's secret weapon that could set the sea on fire - a rumour also concocted by the UPC.

Not exactly concocted - the flame barrage existed on the South Coast. Here's an example..

TIME TO REMEMBER - STANDING ALONE ( 1940 ) - reel 2 - British Pathe