Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Companies

Discussion in '1940' started by idler, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. idler

    idler GeneralList

    BEF-era accounts make occasional reference to these units as distinct from the Royal Artillery's Anti-Tank Regiments. My curiosity got the better of me: if they weren't gunners, who were they? Apologies to those that know this; please feel free to add to it.

    Joslen: Infantry Division 1939 Establishment lists 3 Atk Coys with a total of 27 25-mm Atk guns

    War in France and Flanders:
    Infantry Brigade: Comprised a headquarters and three infantry battalions and a brigade anti-tank company with nine 25-mm. guns.

    Pics courtesy of Owen:
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3935&d=1162817936
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3936&d=1162820501

    As to who manned them, there was no reference to Divisional Anti-Tank Battalions (in the same sense as Divisional Machine Gun Battalions). BBC People's War offered an answer, though it seems to relate to a later, intermediate Div establishment with Bde A/Tk Coys and a MG Bn:
    The action took place on 10th Dec 1940. Order of Battle was - 16th Brigade consisting of 1st Batallion, the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, 2nd Queens, 2nd Leicesters, 16th Brigade Anti-Tank company (my own command-1 platoon from each batallion

    Further confirmation that brigades found their own anti-tank gunners is in Chaplin's The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment 1920-1950 (knowing they formed a single-regiment brigade - 132 Bde, 44 Div). In Oct 1939, 4th and 5th:
    battalions sent a detachment of platoon strength to form an Anti-Tank Company at Brigade Headquarters.
     
    Rich Payne likes this.
  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Good question.

    Anything on them in the 4th or 5th Division histories?

    I'll see if there are any War Diaries at Kew.
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Good question and something that I'd just taken for granted. Looking through Bellis's 'Divisions', they seem to have existed until late 1941.

    Forty in his 'British Army handbook' states -

    Anti Tank - "Although the small calibre (eg 2 Pdr) a tk guns were an integral part of most infantry units and were thus manned by infantry soldiers, the larger calibre a tk guns (6pdrs and 17pdrs) and all SPs were manned by the gunners."

    Presumably as the larger guns became standard and the 2pdrs and 25mms were withdrawn, the brigade A tk companies disappeared.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Well I've just learnt something, cheers Idler.
    From 2 Wilts War Diary
    18/10/1939
    Nantes France.

    1200: Instructions received from 13th Inf Bde that a Bde Anti-Tank Company is being formed , commanded by Major GB Russell DSO.
    The Bn is to provide Coy HQ and one Pl.

    23/10/1939
    1940: Telegram frpm 13 Inf bde instructing Major Russell to proceed with the formation and equiping of the Bde A Tk Coy.

    25/10/1939
    Vehicles and some equipment for the Bde A Tk Coy drawn from Ord Depot by Major Russeell and stored in Carrier's garage.

    26/10/1939
    No 2 Tk Coy formed under 2/Lt Power , also Coy HQ

    30/10/1939
    1010: Coy HQ and No 2 Pl of 13 Inf Bde Anti-Tank Coy , under Major GB Russell DSO left for Rennes .
    2/Lt J Power also went as comdr, 2 Pl; and the vehicles of the 2/Inniskg Pl and the guns of 2/Cameronians Pl included in the convoy.

    11/12/1939
    Instruction issued to coy for commencement of a 2 week course in the training of 100% Reserves for the AT Pl.
     
  5. MyOldDad

    MyOldDad Senior Member

    Good question and something that I'd just taken for granted. Looking through Bellis's 'Divisions', they seem to have existed until late 1941.

    Forty in his 'British Army handbook' states -

    Anti Tank - "Although the small calibre (eg 2 Pdr) a tk guns were an integral part of most infantry units and were thus manned by infantry soldiers, the larger calibre a tk guns (6pdrs and 17pdrs) and all SPs were manned by the gunners."

    Presumably as the larger guns became standard and the 2pdrs and 25mms were withdrawn, the brigade A tk companies disappeared.

    A number of Recce Bns were formed from infantry anti tank companies. 51 (H) Recce was formed in February 1941 from the anti-tank companies of 152, 153 & 154 brigades (Camerons, Seaforths, Gordons, Black Watch and Argylls) of the 51st Highland Division.
    Tom.
     
  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    But the 2 Pdrs were gunners' guns in 1940.

    Perhaps I should add a 'generally' to that. There may have been an intention to give the infantry 2 Pdrs in 1940 with the Hotchkiss 25mm being used as a stopgap.

    I also had a quick flick through the Queens' history as they had two single regiment brigades - 131 and 35 (later 169). 35 Bde was in France as labour so were not up to full establishment. I didn't see a reference to 131 Bde's A/Tk Coy, but it was very quick.

    Re: 4 & 5 Divs: nothing leaps out in 4 Div, other than the A/Tk Coys being shown in the orbat.

    5 Div has this:
    There was no artillery support and the eight 25-mm. French Hotchkiss anti-tank guns available, commanded by Captain P. H. D. Dessain of the Green Howards, were deployed in the best possible positions.
    The A/Tk Coy get a fair amount of coverage - pity it's about 1 KOYLI of 15 Bde around Kvam in Norway!

    17 Bde A/Tk Coy are credited with at least one tank at Maroueil Wood near Mont St Eloi on 23 May, but there was nothing on the raising of the coys.

    I imagine it's more likely to be mentioned in the regimental histories as something that's a little bit out of the ordinary.

    Assuming it was the norm for each battalion to contribute a platoon to the A/Tk Coy, it seems likely that platoons would be attached to their parent battalions if the coy was dispersed - a forerunner of the later A/Tk Pls in battalions.
     
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList

    So glad I wasn't worrying for nothing! Thanks for all the extra info so far.

    now we know where to look: c Oct 1939, I'll have a look tomorrow to see if I can find anything else.
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    It looks as if the companies were very much finding their feet still in late 1939.

    This is an extract from the DAOS diary (Ordnance Mechanical Engineering section) from 2 Div in december 1940 :-

    [​IMG]

    Interesting too that the Men of the LADs had no military training.

    This is part of the instructions sent by HQ 2 Div to the Brigade anti-tank companies regarding towing the Hotchkiss 25mm.

    [​IMG]

    I was interested in the split rim and run-flat aspect. If I'd known this thread would come up, I'd have copied more. Honestly I would !:unsure:

    Rich
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    II suspect Andrea's Grandfather trained as a anti-tank gunner in the East Lanc's prior to D-Day after transfering from the South Lanc's. I would reckon as it appears already they started life like MG Battalions etc and gradually became perminately adopted within Infantry Battalions over time.

    I suspect they were what were to become in more recent times part of HQ Company/Support using Milan Posts (Do the British Army still use Milan?).

    ps I'd Love to know where that picture was taken at Cassel.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/weapons-technology-equipment/3936d1162820501-identifying-army-mat%E9riel-quizclue-jpg
     
  10. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    At the outbreak of WW2 an infantry division comprised 3 infantry brigades and divisional artillery, engineers, signals and services. The infantry brigades had 3 battalions, having lost their fourth in the mid-1930s, and an infantry anti-tank company.

    The Bartholomew Committee recommended many other changes, including full mortar platoons in infantry battalions and conversion of brigade anti-tank companies to battalion platoons once RA re-equipment was completed, and creating divisional reconnaissance regiments. Over the next 3 years there were various changes in divisional organisations (armoured ones outlined below), those assigned to European theatres stabilised as follows:
    • The infantry division gained a regiment (battalion) of the reconnaissance corps, the MG battalion became organic, an LAA regiment was added and the brigade anti-tank companies removed. By 1944 the division had increased to about 18,400 all ranks and 3,350 vehicles, including 595 armoured carriers, almost 1000 radios, 1,262 LMGs, 40 MMGs, 436 PIATs, 110 anti-tank guns, 359 mortars, 72 field guns and 125 LAA guns.
     
  11. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    A number of Recce Regiments were formed from the A/T Companies

    1st Reconnaissance Regiment: 8th January 1941: Formed from the brigade anti-tank companies of 1st Division

    1st Airborne Reconnaissance Squadron: January 1941: Formed from 31st Independent Brigade anti-Tank Company

    4th Reconnaissance Regiment: January 1941: Formed mainly from the Anti-Tank Companies of the 10th, 11th and 12th Infantry Brigades.

    45th Reconnaissance Regiment:January 1941: Formed mainly from the 134th , 135th and 136th Brigade Anti-Tank Companies of the 45th (West Country) Division.

    46th Reconnaissance Regiment:July1941: Formed mainly from Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, and from the 137th, 138th and 139th Brigade Anti-Tank Companies.

    51st (Highland) Reconnaissance Regiment:January 1941: Formed from from the Anti-tank Companies of the 51st Division: 152 A/T Company (Camerons and Seaforths) became 'A' Squadron; 153 A/T Company (Gordons and Black Watch) became 'B' Squadron; and 154 A/T Company (Black Watch and Argylls) became 'C' Squadron.

    53rd (Welsh) Reconnaissance Regiment: 1stJanuary 1941: Formed from the 158th, 159th and 160th Anti-Tank Companies in Belfast

    54th (East Anglian)Reconnaissance Regiment: July 1941: Formed from 21st Battalion Royal Fusiliersand the anti-tank companies of the 54th Division

    56th Reconnaissance Regiment: January 1941: Formed from the 167th, 168th and 169th Brigade Anti-Tank Companies as the Reconnaissance Regiment for the 56th Infantry Division, then transferred to the 78th Division

    61st Reconnaissance Regiment:January 1941: Formed from the 182nd, 183rd and 184th Brigade Anti-Tank Companies.


    Cheers
    Paul
     
  12. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    Were this chaps in charge of the Boys ATR´s too?
     
  13. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    From 4th Camerons History approx 3rd May 1940; ....."Meanwhile, until the Engineer stores were available, the 3 companies at Ising carried out musketry and anti-gas training; also, for the first time, the men had an opportunity to fire the Boyes (.55 anti-tank) rifles".
     
  14. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    The Brigade Anti-tank Companies, as mentioned, were staffed by infantrymen, not gunners (RA). Each Inf Bn in a Brigade was expected to find the personnel for one Platoon, serving three 25-mm guns (French equipments), which I suspect they only saw when they arrived in France. 2-pr guns were handled by the Anti-tank Regiment in each Division. .55-inch calibre anti-tank rifles were issued to numerous units (on paper at least) and were not handled by specific anti-tank detachments.

    Gary
     
  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Were this chaps in charge of the Boys ATR´s too?


    There is a photo in Ospreys book on the Recce Corps, showing Carriers fitted with Boyes ATR in Tunisia. (IWM NA 885)

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    From 4th Camerons History approx 3rd May 1940; ....."Meanwhile, until the Engineer stores were available, the 3 companies at Ising carried out musketry and anti-gas training; also, for the first time, the men had an opportunity to fire the Boyes (.55 anti-tank) rifles".

    The Brigade Anti-tank Companies, as mentioned, were staffed by infantrymen, not gunners (RA). Each Inf Bn in a Brigade was expected to find the personnel for one Platoon, serving three 25-mm guns (French equipments), which I suspect they only saw when they arrived in France. 2-pr guns were handled by the Anti-tank Regiment in each Division. .55-inch calibre anti-tank rifles were issued to numerous units (on paper at least) and were not handled by specific anti-tank detachments.

    There is a photo in Ospreys book on the Recce Corps, showing Carriers fitted with Boyes ATR in Tunisia. (IWM NA 885)

    Thank you all. ;)

    Now, what was the principle behind the kind of popgun a 25mm AT was? Rapid fire? The 2pdr at least had 15mm more caliber.
     
  17. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    There is a photo in Ospreys book on the Recce Corps, showing Carriers fitted with Boyes ATR in Tunisia. (IWM NA 885)

    Regards
    Tom

    Aaaahhh, en portée AT firepower... :huh: Interesting combination, a weapon designed to make a stand (!), on a platform designed to run at the sight of trouble in the shape of the mighty panzer.
     
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Now, what was the principle behind the kind of popgun a 25mm AT was?

    Being charitable, think of it as a really big anti-tank rifle on wheels.

    The Boys (sic) anti-tank rifle was the platoon anti-tank weapon - though other sub-units also had them on establishment, e.g. the carrier platoon - until the PIAT came along.

    Adding to Rich's post: Ventham & Fletcher's Moving the Guns has a nice photo of a Hotchkiss being manhandled up the too-steep ramps onto a 15cwt Bedford MW portee:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23708&d=1262644397

    The implication is that the men are gunners (no markings are visible), the authors referring to a 1939 decision to convert ten TA Artillery Field Brigades into Anti-Tank Brigades, going on to say that the 25mm guns were issued in lieu of 2 Pdrs. Were it not for that detail, I would have assumed that they had mistaken references to Brigade Anti-Tank Companies for Anti-Tank Brigades. Could it be that the TA A/Tk Bdes were formed first and had first dibs on the 25mm guns. As 2 Pdrs became available for the A/Tk Bdes, were Bde A/Tk Coys created to use the spare 25mm guns?

    I don't feel comfortable with A/Tk Bdes - 10 of them would be 30 or so regiments...

    OK, The Norfolk Yeomanry in Peace and War has 108th (Suffolk and Norfolk Yeomanry) Field Brigade being converted to the A/Tk role in Nov 1938 (not 1939). It was then doubled up into 55th (Suffolk Yeomanry) and 65th (Norfolk Yeomanry) A/Tk Regts in Feb 1939. So, contradicting MTG, the TA (including Yeomanry) Fd Bdes became the A/Tk Regts we all know and love. As far as the Norfolk Yeomanry are concerned, there's no suggestion that 25mm guns were ever issued to them.

    Perhaps the 25mm guns were obtained as insurance against a shortage of 2 Pdrs for the A/Tk Regts - but never needed for that purpose - or they could have been procured specifically for the Bde A/Tk Coys?
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    "I don't feel comfortable with A/Tk Bdes - 10 of them would be 30 or so regiments.."

    I think that's down to shifting terminology. Field Brigades, RA, were still around in 1938, consisting of four Btys (three 18-pr and one 4.5-inch howitzer), with six pieces per Bty. The Field Regiment, RA, began to appear in 1938, with just two Btys but twelve pieces per Bty. Anti-tank Brigades of this era would, I assume, be effectively Regimental strength? Not a unit I've seen a WE for so I can't be certain, but as you say, 30 Anti-tank Regts seems a bit high!
     
  20. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    When was it changed to each regiment having a Anti-tank company? Did each infantry regiment have a Anti-tank company? I know that 5th Camerons did.
     

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