Hoffmeister in Italy

Discussion in 'Canadian' started by canuck, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  2. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Nice post Tim. Doug Delany whote Hoffmiesters biography a few years ago. If you want a definitive work on Hoffmiester. Reminds me I have to borrow it from my brother " A Soldiers General Bert Hoffmiester at War"
    Matt
     
    canuck likes this.
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    All very well to idolize Hoffmeister in his leadership 0f 5th CAD but there were times when we thought they were a bloody nuisance such as bumping into 6th Ad - then an Agra
    in the Liri valley - then taking on Tuvalu without Infantry - that was less than professional
    Cheers
     
  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Nice post Tim. Doug Delany whote Hoffmiesters biography a few years ago. If you want a definitive work on Hoffmiester. Reminds me I have to borrow it from my brother " A Soldiers General Bert Hoffmiester at War"
    Matt

    Matt,
    That biography received mixed reviews but I think I'll give it a try myself.

    I saw a comment attributed to Guderian's son, Heinz Gunther Guderian, to the effect that, "Hoffmeister was the most capable commander produced by any of the Allied nations in WW2 and the only Allied officer who would have risen to the rank of Major-General in the Wehrmacht."
     
  5. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    IMHO
    All that was caused by Leese allowing 2 corps in such an narrow front. It was part of the plan that either corp could use whatever roads were available to get forward.The 5th CAD was East of Highway 6 on the morning of the 24th to clear Aquino which was in the 13 corp sector and still occupied 13th corp was nowhere to be found. As you know Tom, the NIH and the 2nd CIB paid the price for 13th corp not masking Aquino. It was well after the breakthrough before the 6th armoured division was committed and the 5th CAD was ordered off the roads. In fact the 6th AD took over a Canadian built bridge at gun point on the 27th. So who was in who's sector? or were the Canadian Engineers just helping out? Had the 13 corps made it's way forward on its side of the corp boundary the Canadian corp would have been were they were supposed to be instead they were advancing while contending with the right flank up in the air. As it occurred 13th corp was committed into the Canadian corp sector because it had not cleared it is own front. The result of this was the open right flank for the Canadian corp for the whole of the operation.
    Leese foolishly allowed such goings on; it almost cost him his job. In order to save face he tried to have Burns fired a few days after sending him a congratualtory message on a successful operation.
    Matt
     
  6. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tim
    This will keep you busy until you find Delany's book
    Terry Copp's article in legion Magazine about the Melfa bridge head. My Dad was seriously wounded at Ceprano a few days later as they were still contending with the open right flank. He was with an advance party of the 17th field regiment who supported (you guessed it) the 11th CIB
    Bridgehead On The Melfa: Army, Part 76 | Legion Magazine
    Matt
     
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  7. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

  8. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    This description written by Lieut Perkins of the Lord Stracona Horse Regiment on his forming of the bridgehead cross the Melfa River During which Major Mahony of the Westminster regiment won his VC (one of 3 Canadian VC's of the Italian campaign
    http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=melfa%20river%20crossing&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wlu.ca%2Flcmsds%2Fcmh%2Fback%2520issues%2FCMH%2Fvolume%25202%2Fissue%25202%2FPerkins%2520-%2520Crossing%2520the%2520Melfa%2520River.pdf&ei=qg3lUNqPDavG0AH984HABw&usg=AFQjCNEm94AvYSyfWA4hbBwNwCBR4YjnHw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Matt-
    the NIH always get a mention for their losses in the valley - completely ignoring 51st RTR- who had the same losses thus cutting the bde strength down to 100- from 171- on the first day...

    No question that Leese lost it and blamed Burns - but I would argue that we had anumber of good Div commanders in Horrocks - Roberts -Murrey - Eveleigh...n few more
    Cheers
     
  10. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  11. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Tom
    Matt-
    the NIH always get a mention for their losses in the valley - completely ignoring 51st RTR- who had the same losses thus cutting the bde strength down to 100- from 171- on the first day...

    No question that Leese lost it and blamed Burns - but I would argue that we had anumber of good Div commanders in Horrocks - Roberts -Murrey - Eveleigh...n few more
    Cheers

    I'm sure you know That the Ontario Regiment lost 13 tanks in Aquino on the 19th when they advanced with the 5th Buffs. You will admit those were fairly heavy casualties for short stay; but, would this info not have been shared to the 1st Can corp hq, in order that it not be a suprise to the next group in. Everything I have read suggests that the NIH and 51st stumbled into a hornets nest unaware on the 23rd.
    No arguement from me on those men were fine GOC's and I'm sure there were more. Canada's army was 5 divisions. It started out with 3 PF infanftry Battalions and a couple of Artillary and support units, not even brigade strength really. Over the course of the war the the Brits had what 50 divisions? It seems that once The Canadians weeded out most of the permanent forces guys most of the GOC's in the Canadian army were pretty competent men. I'm no fan of Simonds and Foukles. I'm thinking of Hoffmiester of course but also Harry Foster,Bruce Matthews,Dan Spry, and even Chris Vokes. When you look at the numbers the Brit's wern't much better off, but for the fact that they had 30 or 40 divisions so they had; more, better officers its just math really.
    Matt
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

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