iHi everyone, I'm Caz65 (Carol in Leeds, West Yorkshire) a new member - just joined today. Also very new at being a member of a forum so please forgive me if I post anything in the wrong place! I'm sure someone will put me right. Before joining I had already found this site to be immensely helpful, particularly in regard to those abbreviations in service records! I've had a copy of my dad's army service records for a couple of years now but fairly recently decided to try and 'dig a bit deeper' and hopefully piece together his time during World War II. I thought I would use the questionnaire I spotted to help get things going. 1. Full Name: Harry Young 2. Relationship (to researcher): Father 3. Service number: 4540650 4. Which branch of Service. Army 5. What unit. 8th Battalion King's Own Royal Regiment, which then merged in 1944 to become the new 1st Battalion 6. Which areas served in. France, Malta, Middle East, Italy 7. Date of birth. 30.3.1915 8. Date of death. 12.11.82 9. Was he a POW ? No 10. Any Gallantry medals. No 11. Any Campaign Stars/Medals ? 1939-1945 Star, Africa Star, Italy Star, Defence Medal 12. Do you have his AB64 or equivalent ? Don't know what this means 13. Approx age on joining. 24 14. Have you applied for records? Yes 15. Do you have any photos ? a couple 16. Have you tried researching elsewhere ? Yes 17. If you have, state where. Google and RA websites and the KORR Museum website 18. Main reason for researching the named person ? He was my dad, I'm proud of what he did according to his service records but would love more detailed information (if possible) on what he/the battalion actually did during those war years. The kind of things I'd like more information about is as follows: Posted 18.4.40 to Dorking then 25.4.40 embarked for BEF - from which port? name of ship? Disembarked & entered Theatre of Operations 26.4.40 - France - where in France? what were they doing in France? 31.5.40 OR 5.6.40 (one record states 31.5.40 and another this date crossed out and replaced with 5.6.40) disembarked UK - he was in the evacuation of Dunkirk but what ship would he have been on and what port in the UK was disembarkation? did they all disembark at Dover only? In Pollok (Glasgow) May/June 1941 - presumably training? Embarked for Service Overseas, Kelso 11.7.41 - from which port? what ship? would it have been via Gibralta? Disembarked Malta 24.7.41 - possibly Valletta? what sort of things were the KORR doing in Malta? SOS Malta to ME 4.11.43 - what ship? Disembarked Port Said ME 11.11.43 - apart from being in Jerusalem at some stage, no other places mentioned in the 3 or 4 months he was in ME, so anything would be helpful here! SOS MEF to CMF 22.3.44 - he remained in Italy until August 1945 - he was wounded (BC) 16.7.44 admitted 19 CCS then transferred to 72 Gen Hosp (which I believe was in Cancello, near Naples) then wounded in action (BC) again 5.10.44 - based on these dates I've been trying to find out what battles these could have been? Whew! Sorry if this is all a bit longwinded but I thought I may as well 'set up stall' right at the beginning and take things from there. Again apologies if I should have posted this elsewhere - remember, I am new to all this! I fully appreciate that I may not get all the answers, if any at all, but at least I will have tried.
Hello Carol and a warm welcome to the forum France and Malta are not really my area of "expertise" but other members will definitely be able to help you with Dunkirk (we have a member who is especially obsessive about this ) Perhaps you could start a new thread in the appropriate forum with your queries and any photographs you may have, and just keep this one for your introduction. Good luck with your research. Don't know if you have this book, or if it is still available, but it looks really useful http://www.diandsaulbooks.co.uk/the-italian-campaign-1st-8th-battalion-kings-own-royal-regiment-in-malta-palestine--italy-ww2-3019-p.asp Oh and I forgot to mention-you can get the war diaries for his unit from the National Archives at Kew. They are a day-to-day account of what the unit was doing during the war and sometimes they do mention the ships he would have sailed on. There are a couple of members who can copy them for a fraction of the cost it would be at Kew. I'm sure they will be along soon to help. Lesley edited: added more info
Hi Carol The battles your Father was wounded were the Sicily campaign and the after battles of the Gothic Line ABOVE Rimini and close to Ravenna you can look them up on Google Cheers
Carol, No doubt you know this, but for the Malta/Italian element, it looks like your Dad might have served with 8 KORR in Malta, as part of 2nd (Malta) Infantry Brigade, renamed 232nd Infantry Brigade in 1943. and then 1 KORR (which took over 8 KORR) in Italy as part of 25th Indian Infantry Brigade in 10th Indian Infantry Division. This is a link to the Indian Divisions' whereabouts in Italy: http://www.ourstory.info/library/4-ww2/Tiger/triumphsTC.html best
"On October 3rd, 25th Indian Brigade took over from 7th Indian Brigade at Borghi, on the edge of the Rubicon Valley. 20th Brigade relieved 11th Brigade on the Montebello Ridge just north of the Marecchia. The Divisional front therefore ran north and south, with a sag in the centre. At its nearest point the Indian troops were little more than ten miles from the sea. Their mission was to thrust into the west in order to widen Eighth Army's battlefield. The countryside lacked the substance of the Tiber landscape. The hills were little more than bare, sharp ridges, slashed by precipitous ravines. The area was heavily populated; everywhere solidly built villages and farmsteads provided the enemy with ready-made pill-boxes and strongpoints. The village church with its observation tower and the high, thick walls of the village cemetery, supplied the nodal points of such defences. As Allied artillery and aircraft were loath to attack consecrated ground, the Germans established their headquarters in sanctuary and enjoyed a measure of immunity during the early stages of any battle. Once in the line, Tenth Indian Division lost no time in getting down to business. On the night after taking over, King's Own clashed with a German patrol near Borghi, killing two scouts dressed in civilian clothes. The bodies identified One Hundred and Fourteenth Jaeger Division, old opponents from the Tiber basin, as on this front. Within forty-eight hours of arrival, a two-brigade assault went in. 20th Brigade struck from the Montebello positions for Sogliano, five miles to the west on the Rubicon. Starting four hours later, 25th Brigade also drove down the line of the Rubicon to clear San Martino. These attacks were destined to converge but not to meet, as the capture of either point would be sufficient to squeeze out resistance east of the Rubicon. On the right of the Divisional front, King's Own, using artificial moonlight, went over to the attack at 0300 hours on the morning of October 5th. Skirting San Martino they swung left-handed and advanced from the south. Against fierce opposition the leading company burst into the village. Out of the darkness a heavy counterattack surged. The British troops were thrown back, losing fifty men. A company in close support refused to give ground, and throughout the day counter-attack after counter-attack broke down. That evening a troop of North Irish Horse tanks arrived, and King's Own smashed at San Martino again. By 2100 hours the village was in their grip. Before daylight 1st Durhams from 10th Brigade arrived up to strengthen the battle line. On the left, 2/3 Gurkhas with tanks of North Irish Horse in support, led the thrust on Sogliano. After easy initial gains, stubborn fighting ensued at a cross-roads which offered the only breakaway route for the defenders. The Gurkhas stormed this position, and leaving a Mahratta company in garrison turned into the south, along the approaches to Sogliano. On arrival at the village the hillmen found themselves forestalled by fighting patrols of 1/2 Punjabis, their left flank neighbours, who on being held up on the approaches to Strigara, turned north and established themselves in Sogliano, afterwards exploiting into the north-west along a road which descends seven hundred feet with seventeen hairpin bends in less than a mile. This quick thrust served a notable end by seizing intact two important bridges across the Fiumicino River."
"25th Brigade, working along the eastern fringe of the Tiber Valley, was first to encounter stiffened resistance. Ten miles beyond their start line, 3/1 Punjabis and King's Own found the little village of Pierantonio a tough nut to crack. An attack on the night of July 2nd cost the British battalion 3 officers and 33 men, of whom 12 were killed. The next day, after a concealed approach march from the west, the position was taken without difficulty. A patrol went forward to reconnoitre Umbertide, a sprawling factory town of yellow-and-grey-walled houses which had grown up around the site of an ancient fortress. This centre likewise was free of the enemy, and 25th Brigade came up in line with the two flank brigades. 3/1 Punjabis immediately pushed on and established contact with the enemy at Montone, five miles to the north, a village standing on a peak above the Tiber Valley. It was an ideal defensive position, as the tracks to the village from south and west climbed open spurs, while on the east the summit was protected by a precipitous hillside. The village and a ridge behind it running into the north, were held by a battalion of One Hundred and Fourteenth Jaeger Division. On July 6th, 3 /1 Punjabis attacked from the south. Throughout the burning heat of the afternoon Sikhs and Mussalman companies battled their way forward across the open countryside. As they surged to gain the shelter of the village, blasts of defensive fire caught them. Colonel Dalton was mortally wounded and his men suffered severely. Fortunately General Reid had not staked everything on the frontal attack. In the dark hours of the previous night 8th Manchesters of 20th Brigade had unobtrusively infiltrated through the hills on the right, and before dawn had tiptoed in upon the German garrison of Carpini, three miles to the east of Montone. Fifteen of the enemy were killed and a number of prisoners taken in a brisk scrimmage in the dark. Following up, King's Own in the next night likewise encircled the Brigade flank in an arduous twelve-mile march over ridges and rivers, and arrived before first light on the crest of Monte Cucco, a mile behind the positions in which the enemy confronted the Punjabis. Without pause King's Own swept down the hillside, into Montone village from the rear. Surprise was complete, and British bayonets were at work before the Germans were awake. The Jaegers in characteristic fashion stuck it obstinately, and several hours of street fighting ensued before Montone was cleared and held. Twenty Germans were killed and sixty-five prisoners taken in return for nineteen British casualties. Lance-Corporal Huntingdon, of Goole, and Private Bradley, of Llanelly, exploited a technique of their own in winkling sullen Boches out of cellars, and the pair brought in twenty-five prisoners. It would have been unlike the enemy to accept such reverse. A counter-attack was anticipated. To meet such threat 3/5 Mahrattas at midnight on July 7th, passed through Monte Cucco and worked into the north along a bare razor-backed ridge, with precipitous slopes on either side. On this narrow neck of high ground, two platoons bumped into a task force of Germans debouching from their start line on a wooded crest. Pandemonium broke loose as the leading troops clashed. Both German and British gunners, standing by for the signal, intervened with curtains of defensive fire. The British shoot was remarkably accurate, dropping only 300 yards ahead of the Mahrattas. The Indians knew their enemies to be trapped and went in with the steel. Amid battle cries and screams the ridge was cleared, and the Mahrattas pressed on towards Monte Falcione, a bald-headed hilltop. Northumberland Fusilier machine-gunners raked the summit before the rush went in. With the Mahrattas in full cry the assault swept over the crest. Darkness and the noise persuaded a number of Jaegers to remain cowering at the bottom of their slit trenches, easy prey for the mopping-up squads. At Morlupo a halt was called, and the gains were consolidated. Throughout the following day, the Mahrattas from their lofty perch on the crown of the mountain, scanned the countryside ahead and below, while artillery and mortar shoots searched for enemy strong points. "It was like stirring an ant hill with a stick," wrote an officer. "Every time a ranging shot went over, the target area spewed out Germans who dived into prepared positions." On the following day, two companies of Mahrattas attempted unobtrusively to reach the crest of Monte Marucchino. For a time their progress was undetected, but the watchers at Morlupo saw. an Italian who was driving his cows down the forward slopes of the mountains, halt and rush into a large farmhouse. Out poured Germans into their slit trenches, and the fight was on. The Mahrattas emerged from cover and raced up the hillside to encounter murderous machine-gun fire from the thickly wooded crest. Meanwhile the right flank of the Morlupo position was under counter-assault. A swift enemy rush had pushed back a platoon of Mahrattas from Point 624, one of their forward posts. 2/3 Gurkhas were on their way forward to relieve, and it was decided to restore the situation before they arrived. Without support weapons the intrepid Mahrattas dashed to the attack. As they closed, a machine-gun nest swept them to earth at point-blank range. The company commander and six non-commissioned officers fell dead. Naik Yashwent Ghadge, the only man of his section unhurt, charged on. Throwing a grenade he followed in with tommy-gun blazing. He reached the emplacement out of ammunition, and hurled himself upon the remaining machine-gunners, whom he beat to death with his clubbed tommy-gun. A sniper brought him down with a mortal wound, and he died across the bodies of his enemies. He had saved his company, his dauntless courage winning a posthumous Victoria Cross. The Mahrattas dug in and waited, but the enemy had had enough and made no further attempt to attack. On the next ridge to the north, a company of the Manchesters had seized a strong-point situated in an ancient castle, which yielded some interesting loot in the form of feminine apparel, cosmetics and wine. Beyond the British flank Skinners' Horse scoured the open countryside as far as the village of Petralunga, at the end of a track on the crest of the High Apennines. In this fastness the partisans and a group of escaped Allied prisoners of war were in control. The enemy was alert, his mountain troops maintaining a cordon in the hills behind the village. The presence of Skinners' Horse led the Germans to close up on all sides, but under cover of a diversionary counter-attack the cavalrymen were able to slip away. For some days clashes continued, as the enemy was in no mood to relinquish his grip upon this mountain position which commanded two of the important lateral roads to the Adriatic coast. This bickering in the hills was of secondary importance, since advances in the Tiber Valley were bound to lead to enemy withdrawals on the open flank. With the enemy ejected from the Montone lay-back positions, 2/3 Gurkhas despatched strong fighting patrols to explore the massive Monte della Gorgacce buttress, five miles further north. The intervening ridges were higgledy-piggledy, heavily wooded, and with few tracks. Sheltered transport harbours were few and far between. An artillery observation officer, who accompanied one of the Gurkha patrols, was lucky enough to spot forty German vehicles, including tanks, huddled in a valley. It was a gunner's dream target; after a ranging round the Divisional twenty-five rounders, mediums and heavies, plastered the acre with everything fuseable. The result was devastation."
Richard / Carol apologies mis - read the date of 25th July 1944 as 1943 - 8th KORR were NOT at San Martino - that might have been San Marino as San Martino was Canadian and my brigade of 21st Tanks Cheers
As noted, it was 1 KORR by then. As you know, north of the Republic of San Marino, there is both a Santo Marino and a San Martino del Mulini.. I'm not a particular expert on this battle area (or any other, come to that) but the transcription above was picked straight out of the 'The Tiger Triumphs"., so it would seem a bit surprising that they would note "San Martino" three times in reference to the KORR's action if it wasn't based on a war diary entry. best
Richard There are a number of San Martino's in that area - the one I was at is near Croce and Gemmano and Coriano to the West and also to the East is San Fortunato - Coriano and East fought over by the Canadians - only 4th Indian were close at San Marino and Croce/Gemmano - more likely 10th Indian were at San Martino in Seiglia, before being dismantled - Clark only had the Indian corps for a short while… and was not very good at reading - especially Orders… Cheers
Lesley, Tom and Richard - thank you so much for the warm welcome and information already that I didn't know about. It's been suggested I start a new thread in the appropriate forum - I'm assuming that will be under 'research' so I'll copy my intro stuff into a post there. Again, if I'm doing it wrong, please guide me! Kind regards. Carol
Hello and welcome to the forum. Some of the 1940 war diary is missing so all I can tell you from the Regimental History is the battalion landed at Le Havre in April. The war diary and regimental history differ slightly in the evacuation from France side of things but they both agree the battalion left via the Mole at Dunkirk and landed at Ramsgate.
Dam I'm good On the 25th April between 1100 hrs and 1215 hrs the battalion arrived by two train at Southampton from Holmwood. They sailed to Le Havre on the SS Manxman via Portsmouth. Arried Le Havre at 0630hrs on 26th April
Here you go, uploaded today for you http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/56872-8-kings-own-royal-regiment-france-1940/?p=662118
CL1, Drew5233, Owen, Smudger Jnr (Tom) and Lotus7 - thank you for welcoming me to this forum and to those of you who have provided more information an even bigger thank you! As I said earlier, I've started the new thread under 'Unit History, War Diaries and Documents' (and not 'research') as I'm hoping that is the most appropriate place. But I didn't want to ignore anyone who replied here. Kindest regards. Carol
